Return of Reckoning

I find it interesting that the City records and Fort records seems to be null when destro are winning (whining)?

wonshot wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:48 pm Just try for a second here and think about Balacing and RoR.

It is a small dev team, trying to ship us a product that even the orginal paid studio failed to make balanced. Yes this is actually way more playable in terms of performance, class to class playablilty (magus and engineer is a thing on ror, it wasnt really on live)
And then take into account that the server is fairly small. its not like ServerA has a destro side winning where as ServerB has Order side dominating.

Merry Christmas,

All of your points are valid and fair and so I might somewhat disagree with OP (and agree with you) in that city win rates etc are always in flux, so that can't be the sole factor in balance. However, data like monthslong logs of city win rates is also a much stronger indicator than a single sample. I'm sure there is other data that the average player won't be able to access like average class/skill damage, kills, deaths etc.

But it's clear from this discussion that many players are completely unaware of very basic game mechanics and thus their feedback should probably be evaluated with that in mind. While things like player skill, population, etc are always factors that constantly change, the core game mechanics don't get changed that much.

Which is why thinking Dragon Talon reduces damage by 80%, or that Exalted Defenses is 5-6x better than Discipline, or that Funnel Power increases Bright Wizard DPS by 15-20%, if taken as common knowledge, can completely derail class balance feedback. It's always possible to make reasoned arguments, we just need to be working on the same base facts and assumptions.

teiloh wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:05 pm

wonshot wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:48 pm Just try for a second here and think about Balacing and RoR.

It is a small dev team, trying to ship us a product that even the orginal paid studio failed to make balanced. Yes this is actually way more playable in terms of performance, class to class playablilty (magus and engineer is a thing on ror, it wasnt really on live)
And then take into account that the server is fairly small. its not like ServerA has a destro side winning where as ServerB has Order side dominating.

Merry Christmas,

All of your points are valid and fair and so I might somewhat disagree with OP (and agree with you) in that city win rates etc are always in flux, so that can't be the sole factor in balance. However, data like monthslong logs of city win rates is also a much stronger indicator than a single sample. I'm sure there is other data that the average player won't be able to access like average class/skill damage, kills, deaths etc.

But it's clear from this discussion that many players are completely unaware of very basic game mechanics and thus their feedback should probably be evaluated with that in mind. While things like player skill, population, etc are always factors that constantly change, the core game mechanics don't get changed that much.

Which is why thinking Dragon Talon reduces damage by 80%, or that Exalted Defenses is 5-6x better than Discipline, or that Funnel Power increases Bright Wizard DPS by 15-20%, if taken as common knowledge, can completely derail class balance feedback. It's always possible to make reasoned arguments, we just need to be working on the same base facts and assumptions.

Destro is just better where it matter, whining on the forums. Order were pretty good at it like 8 months ago.

Sponn wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:08 pm Destro is just better where it matter, whining on the forums. Order were pretty good at it like 8 months ago.

alwayshasbeen.png

Destro has always had the most entitled whiners from day one, and Destro Lobbyists have repeatedly messed up game balance to suit their playstyle of fighting on the forums, and not in game.

wonshot wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:48 pm An ability like Rampage has been the same for like 12years now, it was always the same, .

I agree with mostly but this...im sorry but rampage has been the same UNTIL starting to apply his effect on attacks with 24 targets cap. Probably wasnt a issue when the cap was 9 targets, but with X3 increased cap is a huge change.

When the cap was increased to 24 some abilities went out of control but some was tuned down (morales) and others remained untouched...

So "rampage have been the same for the last 12 years" not true...

teiloh wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:05 pm
All of your points are valid and fair and so I might somewhat disagree with OP (and agree with you) in that city win rates etc are always in flux, so that can't be the sole factor in balance. However, data like monthslong logs of city win rates is also a much stronger indicator than a single sample.

Ah yeah the month long destro city dominance, that was also such a misunderstanding for most.
First of all Order as a realm struggled BIG time to get tanks to fill the few premades who actually wanted to build a 24man stack, leading to late queues and later on to "hey we can queue whenwe want, why dont we dodge" sort of mentality. Where as on destro they HAD to build early and put in efforts to even get a pop in some cases, pushing them to perform or perrish kinda.

Alot of other smaller factors like the pug mentality, overloaded on ranged dps on order and lack imballance between own archtypes made the realm just suffer big time on cityinstance wins. Despite being on the Ball, i think Rolgrom was one of the first to run "correct" melee heavy set ups on order, but also the lack of experience and effort put in by those mdps and players he picked up the results took a long time to follow the strategy unfortuneatly. Even alliance and guildmembers couldnt be trusted to perform to competitive level, and you just get a hopeless feeling spreading on the entire realm from the combined situation. Again, if there had been a mirrored server with none of these player issues the winrates might have looked compeletely different.

Untill someone actually sits down and make a propper list like:
Destro have these advantages
Order have these advantages

And compare the entire list, we will always be stuck in these bracket-biased feeling debates of what is overperforming when in reality it is probably just player skill differences for the most part. Yes Whispering winds could use some love in performing the utility, and rampage could use 2-3sec uptime downgrade. But meh. This will go on till the end of time with one ability being flavor of the month community focus.

emiliorv wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:28 pm So "rampage have been the same for the last 12 years" not true...

But the ability hasnt been changed, the targetcap has and abilities like wider RoF and Rampage are prime examples of big benefactors of such.

wonshot wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:36 pm
Untill someone actually sits down and make a propper list like:
Destro have these advantages
Order have these advantages

And compare the entire list,

I'll do it when I get some free time.

wonshot wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:36 pm And compare the entire list, we will always be stuck in these bracket-biased feeling debates of what is overperforming when in reality it is probably just player skill differences for the most part. Yes Whispering winds could use some love in performing the utility, and rampage could use 2-3sec uptime downgrade. But meh. This will go on till the end of time with one ability being flavor of the month community focus.

That is fair. I think it's worth noting that Destro's win advantage cratered by a good 10%+ percentage points immediately after Morale dump damage was tamed a bit. While it's true that there were a lot of Order pugs, I'm not sure Destro had far fewer - and I'd say Destro pugs certainly fair better than Order ones, and that's a huge issue that might have turned a lot of LazyPeon's influx away in frustration.

emiliorv wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:37 pm

teiloh wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:36 pm

emiliorv wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:33 pm

Shatter is a option to destro but not to order.....order buffs are trash because (somehow) destro managed to shatter anyhting, instead destro buffs are op because (somehow) order cant shatter them...

Learn how shatters work. The earliest buff gets knocked out first, so WP wounds buff is the first Blessing that will go after a RP Rune

well now tell me how in the hell a rampage buff can be shattered hidden behind all these long-time buffs?

Onigokko0101 wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:49 am

Pandastyle wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:46 am

do we have a balance problem?

No man, its only a problem if the other side is zerging and as he know from this thread ORDER NEVER ZERGS AND IS ALWAYS OUTNUMBERED.

It's called 'realm pride' when Order does it.