[Split] Marauder discussion

[foof]

back in the thread about mara, (we know the combination of slayer op thing) what are the best 2-3 skill that mara have and he should not be able to get all togheter?

i think

deadly clutch tactic (heal debuff +50% heal drain)
Growing instability (+50% crit tactic)
PB (50% armor ingore on mutation attacks)


what if we move things so that

PB<---swap--->insane whisper

that would make the mara need to do choice in his build rather then being able to get all

op build) http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mar ... 7:;0:0:0:0:

he should rather choose one of these builds

1) http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mar ... :;;0:0:0:0:
2) http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mar ... :;;0:0:0:0:
3) http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mar ... :;;0:0:0:0:
4) http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mar ... ;;;0:0:0:0:
etc

what do you thinks? would it be a too heavy nerf for mara or will it still be good but not as broken anymore?

I personally believe that would be too heavy of a nerf.

Your proposal boils down to this:

Take one of a classes best core tactics, and shove it 7 points up their worst mastery path. Not to mention that you are putting in the path that has the least amount of abilities it could work with.

[Tesq]

dosent matter if it's onto another path , the point is limit the mara tools.

He should loose pb and have all the rest or have pb and loose 1-.2 of other of his tools?

wounds debuff is really not needed if you have right spec chosen in party so it dosent matter if it's take or not.
( camon 250 wounds more than chosen debuff dosent really matter)

I'd like to know so which skill he should loose, if loose 2 skill is too much then he need to loose 1 only?

if we take out 50% crit tactic and make it core swap it with something, that way mara only loose 25% increase damage but have all the rest. Would this make it more balanced or not?

cos that build i made previusly only make him loose in the end 25/50% of heal debuff (so he still have a heal debuff) but he have to choose if have PB and so do damage or have 50% heal drain and so play more def, he cannot do both:

-25% heal debuff+ 50% armor ingore (PB)

-50% heal debuff (25% + from deadly clutch)+ 50% heal drain(deadly clutch)

PB cannot be taken togheter with deadly clutch and also if PB is spec, cutting claw is not really required, so i tough that was fine, correct me if it's not.

I would like to hear order voice in this matter but none speak

[foof]

dosent matter if it's onto another path , the point si limited the mara tools.

He should loose pb and have all the rest or have pb and loose 1-.2 of other of his tools; wounds debuff is really not needed if you have right spec chosen in party so it dosent matter if it's take or not. ( camon 250 wounds more than chosen debuff they dosent really matter)

I'd like to know so which skill he should loose, if loose 2 skill is too much then he need to loose 1 only?

if we take out 50% crit tactic and make it core swap it with something, that way mara only loose 25% increase damage but have all the rest. Would this make it more balanced or not?

cos that build i made only make him loose in the end 25/50% of hal debuff (so he still have a heal debuff) but he have to choose if have PB and so do damage or have 50% heal drain and so play more def, he cannot do both

So your argument is the Marauder shouldn't be able to get a 50% heal debuff (and use a tactic slot for it) and be able to do decent damage?

I've been through this already in the thread, but I'll state it again. We'd be much better off buffing up the WL and the rest of the MDPS then making the Marauder bad again.

The Marauder already has to make a choice, he gives up his only reliable knockdown to be able to do damage and heal debuff. He is the only MDPS, besides the White Lion, who has to spend a tactic slot to get a non-crappy heal debuff (the WL doesn't even have an incoming, which is a problem all its own, it should get one). This means whereas Choppas/Slayers/WH/WE can run 4 tactics and get a heal debuff, the Marauder has to run 3 (reducing their damage), to get the same level of healing debuff.

The problem with your solutions is that I disagree with your diagnosis of a problem. If the Marauder is slightly too strong (which is debatable, hence this thread), then they would need a slight re-adjustment downwards (I'm much more inclined to bring the other classes up to the stronger classes level personally). What you are suggesting is essentially heavy nerfs, having to give up either your healing debuff, or damage potential. It is just the wrong approach.

If I were to do anything along the lines you suggest, I'd swap Piercing Bite for Unstable Convulsions (the 11 point Brutality tactic). That way, you'd have to decide between Draining Swipes and Piercing Bite. Choosing the Marauder to have to choose between Deadly Clutch and PIercing Bite is a huge and uneccesary nerf.

You shouldn't have to choose between PB and Deadly Clutch. You should be able to get both. The simple fact that the Marauder HAS to use Deadly Clutch to get a 50% healing debuff is already bad enough.

If you want to nerf Deadly Clutch, just remove the heal leeching.

As per your comment "you don't need the armor debuff if you run PB", you still need it in many situations. The key with PB is to you know, read the tactic. It only gives you armor pen on attacks that require a mutation (stance locked), not on everything.

So PB doesn't work on auto attacks, it doesn't work on the wounds debuff, the toughness debuff, the snare, flail, etc.. not to mention you are severly reducing your group utility without the armor debuff, and the armor debuff is the Marauders only undefendable attack.

Again, all that being said, if the Marauder does need to be tuned downwards, it isn't that much and I do not believe it requires any path tactic/ability swaps. You can do things like increase the wounds debuff cooldown to 10 seconds instead of 5, which would be more in line with the slight adjustments they need.

[Coryphaus]

5s on tough debuff

10s cd on wounds de buff

but seriously tesq? a shitty 25% inc wont do any thing, you DC because you need the 50% inc if it was an ability id be ok if it was just the debuff but you are spending a tactic slot so the leech heal is justified

buff wl before we start nerfing mara like you want to tesq

[Xaun]

Mara just needs the following

PB only affects abilities requiring mutation
Feeding on Fear applying negative to be critical
Deadly Clutch applying only to casted heals

Even so in its 1.4.8 incarnation on live it did the weakest burst and sustained of all mdps (gear and player skill being equal)

People perpetuate this myth about Monstro proc, the heal is negligible (like a weak HoT at best and requires you to have hit someone to have a chance of proccing it - so if the enemy is out of demo range you've no chance of proccing it) and the armor pen reduction buff doesn't equal invincibility by any stretch of the imagination (whereas Pounce can get you out of the melee train when no other mdps would be able to)

This is not to mention (again) the fact that you can do NO MEANINGFUL DAMAGE or useful debuffs in Monstro

[Soulcheg]

Last pages chosen and maras discussing how to balance slayer

oh look guys its our resident condescending biased bw

mara is the best mdps on destro, slayer is best on ordo

you nerf one you need to nerf the other

Why so sarcastic, there is even smile over there.

But what about choppa then, if we balance only two of them - mara and slayer, shouldn't we keep choppas in mind? Then it's already not just line with two point, it's already triangle then, but again, if we balance all of them, including choppa - what about WL then, which supposed to be mara's mirror, we should balance him too. I just want to say - don't be overdiligent, and don't focus only on two of them - keep in mind all MDPS classes. That's all i ask, and no need to be overdramatic. Peace.

This thread is literally about a slayer trying to balance marauder. You put yourself if the worst light with your posts. Like you don't even add anything to discussion just show your biased colors. Quick, accuse me again of trying to get Marauder buffed, worked last time so well.

Too much butthurt, hold your horses, kid.

[Coryphaus]

you cant be serious

choppa is no where near as good as slayer or mara, its aoe tree is trash, unlike slayer choppa is strictly st, its no where near as good vs tanks, and cant drop rage when its kd/disabled, more or less required to run wot rules and doesnt have toys like 50% aa haste and other stuff that slayer has


if any thing choppa needs buffs, wl needs buffs

[Ungrin]

you cant be serious

choppa is no where near as good as slayer or mara, its aoe tree is trash, unlike slayer choppa is strictly st, its no where near as good vs tanks, and cant drop rage when its kd/disabled, more or less required to run wot rules and doesnt have toys like 50% aa haste and other stuff that slayer has


if any thing choppa needs buffs, wl needs buffs

I literally don't think anyone in this entire thread has ever said that Choppas are anywhere near slayers or maras for that matter. Like I said, propose some changes. My changes were trying to be direct counters or negations to slayers and then direct mirrors between the two.

[Coryphaus]

i was refering to soulcheg, the way i understood his post it sounded like he was saying that if you nerf slayers then choppas will be stronger than them

[Xaun]

That means that you do not play order enough if you cannot see what is OP on destro side.

Please elaborate for Sigmar

melee herder is bad very few squigs ever waste points getting bad gas

yeah every ordo mdps getting 50% aa haste is ridiculous

I'd be interested in what Order want from Destro or see as imba

Here's a short list. Sadly, quite a few of them stem from the Mara.

1. Terrible Embrace: TE will always be useful but becomes especially telling in WB v WB situations where competing WBs create a front-line. The front-line always advances and recedes like a wave but, TE ensures that the Destro gets 3-5 guaranteed kills whenever the wave advances for them, kills that can't be rezzed because the corpses are now in the Destro back-lines. All too often, I remember equal clashes turning into complete routs because of the TE-tax. Fetch doesn't work nearly as well against fleeing targets.

TE, whilst useful, in all my years playing WAR, fired correctly perhaps 1/3 of the time I used it (granted WL is perhaps even more flaky) but is an ability available to both sides. How it is implemented in RoR will be down to Aza. However it's certainly not a Destro only ability

2. Monstro-proc: The Mara means that Destro has the more durable front-line. From a WB v WB perspective, Order cannot make a melee train that can last longer and hit deeper than Destro.

This is utter nonsense, as I cover just a touch earlier in this thread. A Mara in Monstro in the front lines isnt debuffing and isn't doing any meaningful dmg (can he heal debuff, armor debuff, ap drain, impale, guillotine - NO), he can soak up a bit more damage whilst doing nothing useful

3. Greenskin racial tactics: not only do the ranged Greenskins get racial tactics and the melee Greenskins get melee racial tactics but those tactics are damn useful too. The SH/Sham tactics in particular changes things so much that their whole play-style and feel is different from their "mirrors". An AM will never kite heal as well as a Sham and a SW will never been an annoying bugger like a SH.

No doubt the racial abilities that use 2 of the 4 tactic slots are very powerful kiting tools, they detract from the pure dps or heal potential of the char, without benefitting (the group) beyond the caster. Great for 1v1, fair for 6v6, good for SCs, useless wb vs wb

Whereas an AM isn't a terrible kiter

4. Chosen tactic crippling strikes: the ability to (AOE) reduce damage to 70% ON TOP of Challenge, ON TOP of Guard just reinforces the fact that Order melee trains don't work as well as Destro melee trains. Yes the Chosen needs to slot a tactic and yes the Chosen needs to crit but in WB v WB situations that means it'll be constantly up.

LOL

Chosen has two AoE (one of which is requires speccing 13pts into and using a greatweapon, and loses the ability to use a shield and ergo mixed defenses, making guarding a minimal roadbump at best), the other is small radius, can be blocked/parried, must land a crit and is on a 15s cd

Furthermore it doesn't stack with Challenge

That said, it's not a weak ability in a 1v1 or 6v6 setting, but pales in comparison to all Order mDps having +50% AA haste and a free (no tactic slot required, always on) +20% critical chance

5. BG super-punt: I love the fact that it makes BG special but the fact remains that it's one of the best tools from separating a tank from its guard target and Order has no mirror.

Indeed BG has a longer punt than IB, although would be good to know just how much more as I don't think its by as much as you may think

6. A minor point but Order doesn't really have a class that lays on the debuffs quite like the Mara and (to a lesser extent) BG does.

We also don't have a tank that buffs (single target) it's guardee as strongly as the IB
We don't have a tank that buffs the group as insanely as the Kotbs
We don't have access to 1shotKill like the SW
We don't have the incredible offensive and defensive mobility of Pounce
We don't have 2x anytime rKds
We don't have AoE Rampaging, Limb Shattering contagious AoE dots that could trigger procs (on Live anyway)

7. Morale control: This last one is just a feeling (no research this time) but Destro seems to have quicker access to Morale abilities than Order does. Part of it is 'Destined for Victory' but Destro seems to have access to some very good morale drains (the Mara's Crushing Blows?). (In before 100 Maras pop in to say how difficult it is to spec this tactic.)

Almost no Mara will spec Crushing Blows as you will be losing out on too many of the Mara Bread and Butter debuffs and damage, but even so - I think most Destroy would gladly trade Crippling Strikes, DfV, Crushing Blows, slightly longer punt for IB, Monstro proc, TB, Celery for the things Order have that I listed