Destro six man group comp

[Jaycub]

Well not necessarily about no crit stacking on slayer
My weakling killa delt 1.2k with multipler so with out it would be 900

42% chance to deal 900 dmg crits is pretty dam good in my book

Also the reason melee lines were so powerful on live is b/c of cc immunity with rd

Look at gown many snares, kbs,staggers and kds we have atm

I'll try to explain my stance a bit a better about crit chance/multiplier

Aside from BW/Sorc there is only one way to get critical multiplier, from tactics.

You have the slayer one posted above, and choppa gets a flat 25% increase, magus have one tied to like 3 spells? and the most common tactic that many mdps have the 50% increased multiplier one.

An increase in 50% multiplier is effectively doubling the amount of damage you gain from 1 point of crit chance, 25% would be half of that, and the sorc/bw mechanic at 100 allows them to get 1.5% increased damage per 1 point of crit chance.

that means for 1 tactic slot, a WH for instance can increase his damage output over ~25% in the right group setup. When you look at crit chance tactics, the most powerful one is the mara/sw one that gives you 20% chance to crit with the drawback that you are 10% more likely to be crit. That is a 10% increase of damage on shadow warrior, and a 10 or 20% increase in damage on mara depending on if you are running the 50% tactic.

Crit chance in this game even in the best circumstances falls short of multiplier in terms of effective DPS.

Building a group around increasing crit chance with a 2 slayer lineup is inefficient, unless you found a way to run their crit multiplier tactic effectively.

Choppas 25% tactic, I would imagine... is not that great compared to other things they have acess to, but I could be wrong. That tactic increases the scaling of crit on choppa by 0.25% dps per 1% chance of crit. Even if you were able to get around 50% crit, thats only a 12.5% increase in damage.

[Jaycub]

Some more thought on crit

1% crit chance vs 1% crit multiplier

At base 150% multiplier, 1% of crit will give you 0.5% increased damage, becuase you have a 1% chance to deal 50% more damage... 1% of 50 is... 0.5.

1% of crit multiplier will give you an additional 0.01% increased damage per 1% chance to crit, as in 1 out of 100 attacks will deal 1% more damage. And when we multiply this by 50 (base crit multiplier) we have 0.5% increased damage as shown above.

So each scale and are dependent on each other.

What makes multiplier "worth more" is the scarcity of it in game. No RR ability for it, no active abilities for it, no buffs etc... ONLY 1 tactic per class, and BW/Sorc mechanic.

Most classes are stuck at 150% and will receive only the 0.5% increased damage from 1% crit. However the classes lucky enough to have access to the 50% tactic, and 100% increased multiplier mechanic receive double, and triple the dps increase over base. Making crit one of the most effective means of increasing damage, especially when running in a group designed to increase it, as there are no shortage of buffs/tactic etc... that can increase critical chance.

This doesn't mean slayer/Choppa are out in the cold, it just means there are probably much better ways to build a group or scale your character other than crit if you focus is on one of these classes. Their mechanic makes them extremely strong, and giving them access to the powerful 50% increased multiplier tactic as well would allow them to scale outrageously, as if they don't already.

[Luuca]

Some more thought on crit

1% crit chance vs 1% crit multiplier

At base 150% multiplier, 1% of crit will give you 0.5% increased damage, becuase you have a 1% chance to deal 50% more damage... 1% of 50 is... 0.5.

1% of crit multiplier will give you an additional 0.01% increased damage per 1% chance to crit, as in 1 out of 100 attacks will deal 1% more damage. And when we multiply this by 50 (base crit multiplier) we have 0.5% increased damage as shown above.

So each scale and are dependent on each other.

What makes multiplier "worth more" is the scarcity of it in game. No RR ability for it, no active abilities for it, no buffs etc... ONLY 1 tactic per class, and BW/Sorc mechanic.

Most classes are stuck at 150% and will receive only the 0.5% increased damage from 1% crit. However the classes lucky enough to have access to the 50% tactic, and 100% increased multiplier mechanic receive double, and triple the dps increase over base. Making crit one of the most effective means of increasing damage, especially when running in a group designed to increase it, as there are no shortage of buffs/tactic etc... that can increase critical chance.

I understand your point, but burst is king. This isn't PvE where sustained damage over time wins. Big crits win kills. And if your chance to crit more often increases, your chance to kill does as well. I can run my stupid dot aura in SCs and pad my damage numbers with fluff damage and never kill anyone.

Am I wrong?

[Jaycub]

No you're not

That's something I have thought of too, it's a side effect of crit allowing you to potentially burst. Which in this meta is probably everything. As you need to kill something before it gets guard, detaunts, gets focused healed etc...

I might be too much in a PoE state of mind, as there was a big discussion and balance around crit.

It's a bit hard to theory craft these types of things because there are a lot on non static variables involved.

I still think a lack of crit multiplier is one of the main reasons certain classes end up falling off endgame. Obviously not slayer or choppa though :^)

[Tklees]

3 dps or bust. 2 rdps 1 melee 2 heals 1 tank. /thread. Good tanks can float guard and cc for 3 dps.

[Jaycub]

3 dps or bust. 2 rdps 1 melee 2 heals 1 tank. /thread. Good tanks can float guard and cc for 3 dps.

I just don't see where 1 tank can cover 5 people, if you are up against a 2-2-2 with 2 gaurded MDPS they can just walk up to your healers and put pressure on them, with 2 RDPS, the 1 tank and 1 mdps is hardly any kind of threat to a good healer, so there isn't a need for the tanks or MDPS to be anywhere except on top of your healers/RDPS (meaning the RDPS can't assist on healers) meaning the 1 tank you have can't leave the backlines. This would mean their healers are free casting while yours are scrambling. And it only takes 1 good punt for your entire team to lose guard for however long the tank is MIA.

It's just what I see happening, without any real competitive 6v6 going on everything is really just opinions and hearsay. Experiences in SC's can hardly be accounted as credible.

I hope the devs end up sponsoring some kind of 6v6 tournaments every week/bi-weekly when we hit level 40 so they can observe comps etc... and it should help them balance the game much better if they collect data/feedback from those.


Edit: Tthe one thing I can see working is swapping out a tank for DPS dok/wp in a deathball type group. Since all your dps/healer have some kind of AoE detaunt, and the extra heals/buff from the dps WP can make up for not having a 2 tanks. But I still don't think it would be as effective as 2-2-2.

[Tklees]

3 dps or bust. 2 rdps 1 melee 2 heals 1 tank. /thread. Good tanks can float guard and cc for 3 dps.

I just don't see where 1 tank can cover 5 people, if you are up against a 2-2-2 with 2 gaurded MDPS they can just walk up to your healers and put pressure on them, with 2 RDPS, the 1 tank and 1 mdps is hardly any kind of threat to a good healer, so there isn't a need for the tanks or MDPS to be anywhere except on top of your healers/RDPS (meaning the RDPS can't assist on healers) meaning the 1 tank you have can't leave the backlines. This would mean their healers are free casting while yours are scrambling. And it only takes 1 good punt for your entire team to lose guard for however long the tank is MIA.

It's just what I see happening, without any real competitive 6v6 going on everything is really just opinions and hearsay. Experiences in SC's can hardly be accounted as credible.

I hope the devs end up sponsoring some kind of 6v6 tournaments every week/bi-weekly when we hit level 40 so they can observe comps etc... and it should help them balance the game much better if they collect data/feedback from those.


Edit: Tthe one thing I can see working is swapping out a tank for DPS dok/wp in a deathball type group. Since all your dps/healer have some kind of AoE detaunt, and the extra heals/buff from the dps WP can make up for not having a 2 tanks. But I still don't think it would be as effective as 2-2-2.

Like mez said you look at numbers and paper and assume it's correct. In a real fight having the ability to kite dps while you're tank is ccing them and your mdps is on their ass is too much dps for a group to handle. Rdps can also spread from each other letting them not all be detaunted at once while assisting versus a melee train where everyone is within 20ft of each other.

[Nanji]

Shlomo, we (the Xioth group) are still up for a 6on6
Just in case you want to see how the theorycrafting works out.

[Jaycub]

Like mez said you look at numbers and paper and assume it's correct. In a real fight having the ability to kite dps while you're tank is ccing them and your mdps is on their ass is too much dps for a group to handle. Rdps can also spread from each other letting them not all be detaunted at once while assisting versus a melee train where everyone is within 20ft of each other.

Yes but all the DPS in a 2-2-2 have a guard and are not susceptible to being bursted down. A dps class esp something like a sorc/bw without guard can die in a 3 sec kd against 2 mdps and 2 tanks beating on them before they are allowed to do anything. Trying to burn through a guarded MDPS is much harder.

You have to be able to pressure the healers in a 2-2-2 group or nothing will die, That means you need to be able to penetrate to them and have things that can actually pressure (interrupt, kd, silence, debuffs specifically heal) and I don't see that happening when you only have 1 tank that is going to be forced to constantly float guard between RDPS/Healers being trained on.

As a slayer I'm not afraid of 2 RDPS even if they are both BW's going through their rotation on me if i have a gaurd and my healers are free to cast.

having guard on mdps also means the tank is free to attack the same target and contribute full dps, in a situation where he is constantly floating gaurd between people he has to stay 30ft from he often can't dps. Tanks can contribute quite a bit of DPS, and in a meta where killing something, anything as fast as you can is the name of the game... it matters a lot. That is why guard is so important.

None of this is "on paper" its pure imagination/scenario building.

[Penril]

Chillwind > Word of Pain

/thread