Grimmshimmer and fleshrenders

[Farrul]

For example the maximum regen you can achieve that was mentioned in this post was ~180 hp/1s. On my zeal a single dot does 800 to 1k dmg per tick and I have multiple dots. I find it hard to believe that any regen class just out regens the dmg. :/

I suppose if you're also very heavily specced into disrupt, toughness and have high hp with absorbs, but I dunno. I still feel like, let's say slayer, no matter the regen he specs into, it won't save him from dots. I guess thats one point some are trying to say that the regen alone isn't the issue.

Regen of course must be supported by mitigation and avoidance, it works only in tandem with those. By itself it would be terrible as you describe.

For example on a tank, that zealot dot would maybe hit me for 150-200, maybe crit 3xx?. Also consider defensive class abilities etc that gives regen time to perform its magic.

P.S. MDPV once had a video on IB with 1500 regen or so, that would be equal to 375 hp /1 s . Im pretty certain my SM can go far beyond 180/s . But to do so it would sacrifice so much the entire build would be total trash . As a clear example the Renown Regen is terrible investment point for point, it costs as much as having futile strike IV( which obviously is superior to 140/4).

[dirnsterer]

Solutions could come from :
- Nerfing Witchbrew by some extend, make it less of a no-brainer choice compared to other 13pts finishers (make damage physical, lower damage, number of ticks, up cooldown, etc.)
- Cut absorb tactic value by half ; compare it to the WH one and make it 300-350, for a core tactic it's uber decent.
- Make fleshrender rings unique (only one of each kind, one regen, one morale etc.)

That's what allow stealthers to get out of any fight without worries 90% of the time (and interupting casted damaging skill as soon they break LoS for 0.1s which is ridiculous)

Having played WE forever and ever from live till now I do feel like gimping finishers is something I would not allow. They have always had such a horrible finishers thanks to how the game works, as you mention physical dmg. Everything hits like a wet noodle on WE because it really cannot stack around 900 ws and have 900 str like some other dps classes thanks to their tactics in turn. Like I would trade high base ini to say high base ws instead gladly. In those ages past WE usually just used AW and spammed it like they usually might happen to do because that is only sort of decent ability they can get armor ignore and dmg going up to a decent degree.

Sac stab is useless, always been always will be it feels like, again physical dmg, low ws usually, hits nothing because everyone stacks armor. OYK, is actually good because range kd and then also morale pump / drain plus when going for it armor ignore tactic could be picked up for use. Witchbrew is decent, as you said because it is not physical and can add a little bit more pressure on the hits with target. Basically I do feel like it would just gimp WE build that actually might want to go for hdebuffer route in a group, like what finisher are you gonna get when WB is ****? Most likely nothing and just add in points to tree instead. Or well, it might also just make it so that someone else in group carries hdebuff and the WE will be forever locked into OYK type build with armor ignore focus.

Like sure, turn us into just mere AW spammers again, fine whatever at least give back FM that increases crit so we will never ever use finishers, again.

Absorb tactic, sure whatever toss it into bin and give us some more dps type tactics.
And what comes to stealthers, do let us get away, especially if say regen and tanky builds are nerfed. WE do tend to just blow up against proper geared WL or WH during kd anyways, vice versa on WH if someone just jumps you, you just die if no possibility for somesort of reset. Like thanks light armor. Maybe mug up the stealth elixir to be charge or somesort of proper gap closer which does not give that high getaway possibility?

[Pahakukka]

Having anathema and agile escape defendable would go a long way for WH/WE resets, it would still be strong, but not automatic escape.

[dirnsterer]

Having anathema and agile escape defendable would go a long way for WH/WE resets, it would still be strong, but not automatic escape.

I hate this idea as it is. But I would be fine if the stagger effect could be parried but let us have the cool jumps and not have it not work 60% of the time (thanks high parry/block bois). Is good also to be used offensively and seeing that go into the pile of dice rolls just infuriates me for some reason.

[Farrul]

Having played WE forever and ever from live till now I do feel like gimping finishers is something I would not allow. They have always had such a horrible finishers thanks to how the game works

Now that this got a little derailed into another WE thread( there was already a decent discussion in the WE vs WH thread about the very same issue).

I agree nerfing Witch brew isn't needed, in fact nerfing Witch elf is not what the devs should be focusing on in the dps patches. This is too narrow minded.

What the WE needs is a rework of the middle tree into something that fits the carrer of a stealth class( i.e not being a stealthed tank).

The entire ''def we regen'' thing is somehing which imho should never had existed in the first place, it's not a tank class but a dps class with stealth and powerful disengage tools. Hence the balance issues with the spec.

Hopefully the devs will realize that after all these years, and rework that which needs to be and improve stuff which may be underpowered.

Seems to me, none def WE is a little underpowered at the moment compared to WH, which in turn might be a little on the weaker side compared to other dps classes, hence both of them hopefully will get a worthy update in the dps patches.

[dirnsterer]

Having played WE forever and ever from live till now I do feel like gimping finishers is something I would not allow. They have always had such a horrible finishers thanks to how the game works

Now that this got a little derailed into another WE thread( there was already a decent discussion in the WE vs WH thread about the very same issue).

I agree nerfing Witch brew isn't needed, in fact nerfing Witch elf is not what the devs should be focusing on in the dps patches. This is too narrow minded.

What the WE needs is a rework of the middle tree into something that fits the carrer of a stealth class( i.e not being a stealthed tank).

The entire ''def we regen'' thing is somehing which imho should never had existed in the first place, it's not a tank class but a dps class with stealth and powerful disengage tools. Hence the balance issues with the spec.

Hopefully the devs will realize that after all these years, and rework that which needs to be and improve stuff which may be underpowered.

Seems to me, none def WE is a little underpowered at the moment compared to WH, which in turn might be a little on the weaker side compared to other dps classes, hence both of them hopefully will get a worthy update in the dps patches.

Yeah sorry for derail, but point is do not shoot the career to the point other parts of it just get gutted. Like give some armor debuff / ignore stuff in, toss out proc stuff. Deliberate abilities that deal with high avoidance and need to be used smartly in dmg windows. Something like that.

[nocturnalguest]

Yeah sorry for derail, but point is do not shoot the career to the point other parts of it just get gutted. Like give some armor debuff / ignore stuff in, toss out proc stuff. Deliberate abilities that deal with high avoidance and need to be used smartly in dmg windows. Something like that.

Full support on not nerfing WE.

Both WE/WH definitely can use alot of QoL improvements, total mastery rework is inevitable imo and unique role for each content (solo, smallscale, orvr) are to be designed and built. Something has to be done with finishers for WE, or even both WE/WH they should be somewhat similar realmwide, copycat design principles as now for RP/Zeal, proactive, good design imo. I do hope they wont be getting AoE but rather really strong cleaves. Imo they do need some "shutdown" 1v1 specs but those have to have counters balanced by efforts put in regards to execute-counter, dont think them getting "kill within KD" gonna do any good so something along the lines of being able to control one target (maybe even some mini versions of CC without immunities), they also are obliged to have spiked burst with obvious enough rotations, so they dmg cant be on dots or sustains dps, all their abilities have to be combos&finishers (mara finisher, dps wp finishers are very good design examples imo). Cleave builds, control builds and ST smallscale builds should be clearly separated with a possibility to mix in cleave+st but with some trade offs. Cleave builds should also have unique utility, morale pump/drain could stay for that purpose i guess. And as was mentioned absorb tactic put in line with rest abilities (so 375 absorb and not on crit but as rest on being hit with similar % with icd).

Atm its unclear what they should be doing outside of 6mens (either as 6v6, regular SC or ST city groups). They have no role whatsoever. Thats the first thing to fix imo.

[Faction69]

Not true, ive send proves already. 5 times to be accurate.

Real deliberate tl;dr of this thread is:
- items have nothing to do with issues raised;
- issues should be solved in DPS rework, its classes to be changed not items.

This is true, if a class benefits too much from Regen, it's the class that should change. Not the regen items per se.

Hence, a universal nerf of regen items as some have suggested, is a terrible idea.

The question is, is this really something that we need to protect? Is this such an important and iconic archetype that RoR can't just trash it? Because from my experience, the game would be objectively better without significant regen gear, except perhaps some of it for tanks. It adds nothing positive at all, it creates a solo/small scale roam metagame where half the players are running around with deftard builds, and the other half are playing actual specialised solo dps builds that still can't do enough burst to kill those deftard builds. So they just avoid each other, which is not a good situation in a game that already has a low population.

Yes regen must be protected as it serves an important function in the small scale balancing between classes, as i explained a few pages back in my post. It's not a difficult thing to grasp if one takes into consideration how each class role interacts with another.

Reminder: If regen is nerfed/removed etc. Then you would have a balance nightmare in the small scale were the obnoxious RDPS/DOT/Healer classes would reign supreme even more than they currently do.

I.e Regen is primarily a tool to counter Dots, since classes with Dots( or hots) are generally overpowered in most mmo' games in the small scale. Regen enables more classes to have a fighting chance.

The downside is the ''deftard'' builds, but these generally have low DPS and as such are not a problem. There are a few excetions as been mentioned, but then regen per se isn't the issue but the specific class needs to be looked at. If it benefits too much from the stat.

But RDPS, dot and healers do not reign supreme in small scale without regen gear. There's 1 shaman spec (dps gear with toughness buff and divine fury) that is overpowered in small scale but almost no one plays it. Most shamans are full glass cannon. Other dps healers are balanced.

The only important function regen really serves is to enable 1 overpowered archetype (WE) and to allow anyone else who plays regen to be unkillable and do no damage. The game would be much more fun if every one of those players were playing a real build instead so everyone could get more action.

[Panzer80]

Nothing is OP if everyone has access to it. DPS healers do a lot of healing to themselves, even with a heal debuff. Tanks have many innate healing passives. These kinds of builds work on any class to varying degrees. A SW can use a few regen pieces to keep from dying to dagger throws from WE's and they can have longer kiteing than normal. On melee dps classes these defense builds are basically anti-melee builds. Meaning they kill melee dps very well but are trash against ranged or heals. The only complaints about this stuff are from people who lose a fight to a better spec than what they have themselves. These types of complaints are no different than the ones saying something killed me really fast and its OP. However, I do think that going "glass cannon" needs to be more viable. I'd like to see some hyper damage possibilities with the new dps changes. Stuff that makes you hit significantly harder, but only at great risk (say like when you have < 25% hp for example. Also, some of us really like to fight 2 v 1, or 3 v 1. Who could complain about that? Other than the ones who lost...

1. 300 hp / 4 secs isn't game breaking. It gives you some relief to react on the long GCD the game has deployed so you don't become susceptible to execution abilities which enable when you are below 30% health.
2. A regen spec'd Tank will beat a regen spec'd melee DPS most of the time.
3. A regen spec'd DPS may beat a non-regen spec'd Tank some/most of the time.
4. A dps-healer will beat a regen spec'd melee DPS or Tank most of the time.
5. There is no amount of regen you can spec to out heal a properly spec'd DPS-AM/Sham

We are focusing on the wrong itemization problems of the game with this thread. It's not even in the top 50 problems the current version of ROR has...

Correct.

But not everyone has equal access to utilise regen gear effectively. It turns one class into an absolute monster that ruins smallscale for everyone else while being a meme for anyone else except tanks. Small scale in general is made significantly less fun by the prevalence of defensive builds, since they can't actually kill anyone who just runs away because they do no damage. But regen WE just takes the piss and wins by default against everyone.

These sorts of builds turn what should be battles of finesse into obnoxious button mashing fests at best.

The state of things right now is:

WE regen/def build does good damage, can live through any classes burst and then passively heal, wins every fight by default. Very difficult to escape from, so will whittle pretty much anyone down and win eventually except a healing specced healer.

Any other DPS with a regen/def build does too little damage to do anything, but simultaneously also can live through burst and outheal even full dps spec single target builds, so it's sitll annoying to have them around.

Tank regen with some dps builds are OKAY, the only one that really feels somewhat balanced, though the regen is still a bit too much.

Tank regen/def builds are the most obnoxious people on the server who do no damage, get no kills, and seem to exist to intentionally grief people by wasting their time (you all know who I'm talking about, there are infamous players who do this)

The question is, is this really something that we need to protect? Is this such an important and iconic archetype that RoR can't just trash it? Because from my experience, the game would be objectively better without significant regen gear, except perhaps some of it for tanks. It adds nothing positive at all, it creates a solo/small scale roam metagame where half the players are running around with deftard builds, and the other half are playing actual specialised solo dps builds that still can't do enough burst to kill those deftard builds. So they just avoid each other, which is not a good situation in a game that already has a low population.

The small scale in RoR is obviously not a focus, but it is not in other MMORPGs either, and they still have much better and more dynamic gameplay than this. Exciting fast pace fights with lots of room to outplay the other player vs... Let's strafe around each other and mash buttons while passively healing and having 70% damage reduction.

Good 1v1 gameplay is stuff like,
A choppa intentionally eats the burst of a WH and makes him think he's winning then kds+bursts him with full rage before he can vanish.
An SW perfectly manages his stance swapping and cooldowns and manages to get out of range of a melee who got the jump on him then wins by kiting.
An engineer turns around a fight against a DPS WE who got the opener by detaunting+knockbacking him and then mezzing his vanish.

Regen gear (especially with its associated proc slows and such) essentially kills all of this potential for actual fun, fast fights where actions and decisions are meaningful, with opportunities to outthink and outplay the opponent.

Then you are complaining about the classes. As for what is fun? I like unfair fights where I take on multiple players. You want to take that away? You will still be complaining about my renown regen mara with 850 toughness...

[Faction69]

Nothing is OP if everyone has access to it. DPS healers do a lot of healing to themselves, even with a heal debuff. Tanks have many innate healing passives. These kinds of builds work on any class to varying degrees. A SW can use a few regen pieces to keep from dying to dagger throws from WE's and they can have longer kiteing than normal. On melee dps classes these defense builds are basically anti-melee builds. Meaning they kill melee dps very well but are trash against ranged or heals. The only complaints about this stuff are from people who lose a fight to a better spec than what they have themselves. These types of complaints are no different than the ones saying something killed me really fast and its OP. However, I do think that going "glass cannon" needs to be more viable. I'd like to see some hyper damage possibilities with the new dps changes. Stuff that makes you hit significantly harder, but only at great risk (say like when you have < 25% hp for example. Also, some of us really like to fight 2 v 1, or 3 v 1. Who could complain about that? Other than the ones who lost...



Correct.

But not everyone has equal access to utilise regen gear effectively. It turns one class into an absolute monster that ruins smallscale for everyone else while being a meme for anyone else except tanks. Small scale in general is made significantly less fun by the prevalence of defensive builds, since they can't actually kill anyone who just runs away because they do no damage. But regen WE just takes the piss and wins by default against everyone.

These sorts of builds turn what should be battles of finesse into obnoxious button mashing fests at best.

The state of things right now is:

WE regen/def build does good damage, can live through any classes burst and then passively heal, wins every fight by default. Very difficult to escape from, so will whittle pretty much anyone down and win eventually except a healing specced healer.

Any other DPS with a regen/def build does too little damage to do anything, but simultaneously also can live through burst and outheal even full dps spec single target builds, so it's sitll annoying to have them around.

Tank regen with some dps builds are OKAY, the only one that really feels somewhat balanced, though the regen is still a bit too much.

Tank regen/def builds are the most obnoxious people on the server who do no damage, get no kills, and seem to exist to intentionally grief people by wasting their time (you all know who I'm talking about, there are infamous players who do this)

The question is, is this really something that we need to protect? Is this such an important and iconic archetype that RoR can't just trash it? Because from my experience, the game would be objectively better without significant regen gear, except perhaps some of it for tanks. It adds nothing positive at all, it creates a solo/small scale roam metagame where half the players are running around with deftard builds, and the other half are playing actual specialised solo dps builds that still can't do enough burst to kill those deftard builds. So they just avoid each other, which is not a good situation in a game that already has a low population.

The small scale in RoR is obviously not a focus, but it is not in other MMORPGs either, and they still have much better and more dynamic gameplay than this. Exciting fast pace fights with lots of room to outplay the other player vs... Let's strafe around each other and mash buttons while passively healing and having 70% damage reduction.

Good 1v1 gameplay is stuff like,
A choppa intentionally eats the burst of a WH and makes him think he's winning then kds+bursts him with full rage before he can vanish.
An SW perfectly manages his stance swapping and cooldowns and manages to get out of range of a melee who got the jump on him then wins by kiting.
An engineer turns around a fight against a DPS WE who got the opener by detaunting+knockbacking him and then mezzing his vanish.

Regen gear (especially with its associated proc slows and such) essentially kills all of this potential for actual fun, fast fights where actions and decisions are meaningful, with opportunities to outthink and outplay the opponent.

Then you are complaining about the classes. As for what is fun? I like unfair fights where I take on multiple players. You want to take that away? You will still be complaining about my renown regen mara with 850 toughness...

No one is afraid of your tank mara. We just ignore you and walk away, sad that without regen gear there would have been an actual fight where both of us would have maybe had some fun.