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Grimmshimmer and fleshrenders

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Farrul
Posts: 694

Re: Grimmshimmer and fleshrenders

Post#101 » Fri Oct 10, 2025 10:08 am

Stinksuit wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 9:41 amFor example the maximum regen you can achieve that was mentioned in this post was ~180 hp/1s. On my zeal a single dot does 800 to 1k dmg per tick and I have multiple dots. I find it hard to believe that any regen class just out regens the dmg. :/

I suppose if you're also very heavily specced into disrupt, toughness and have high hp with absorbs, but I dunno. I still feel like, let's say slayer, no matter the regen he specs into, it won't save him from dots. I guess thats one point some are trying to say that the regen alone isn't the issue. :)
Regen of course must be supported by mitigation and avoidance, it works only in tandem with those. By itself it would be terrible as you describe.

For example on a tank, that zealot dot would maybe hit me for 150-200, maybe crit 3xx?. Also consider defensive class abilities etc that gives regen time to perform its magic.

P.S. MDPV once had a video on IB with 1500 regen or so, that would be equal to 375 hp /1 s :) . Im pretty certain my SM can go far beyond 180/s . But to do so it would sacrifice so much the entire build would be total trash :) . As a clear example the Renown Regen is terrible investment point for point, it costs as much as having futile strike IV( which obviously is superior to 140/4).

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dirnsterer
Posts: 213

Re: Grimmshimmer and fleshrenders

Post#102 » Fri Oct 10, 2025 10:39 am

Fenris78 wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 8:39 am Solutions could come from :
- Nerfing Witchbrew by some extend, make it less of a no-brainer choice compared to other 13pts finishers (make damage physical, lower damage, number of ticks, up cooldown, etc.)
- Cut absorb tactic value by half ; compare it to the WH one and make it 300-350, for a core tactic it's uber decent.
- Make fleshrender rings unique (only one of each kind, one regen, one morale etc.)

That's what allow stealthers to get out of any fight without worries 90% of the time (and interupting casted damaging skill as soon they break LoS for 0.1s which is ridiculous)
Having played WE forever and ever from live till now I do feel like gimping finishers is something I would not allow. They have always had such a horrible finishers thanks to how the game works, as you mention physical dmg. Everything hits like a wet noodle on WE because it really cannot stack around 900 ws and have 900 str like some other dps classes thanks to their tactics in turn. Like I would trade high base ini to say high base ws instead gladly. In those ages past WE usually just used AW and spammed it like they usually might happen to do because that is only sort of decent ability they can get armor ignore and dmg going up to a decent degree.

Sac stab is useless, always been always will be it feels like, again physical dmg, low ws usually, hits nothing because everyone stacks armor. OYK, is actually good because range kd and then also morale pump / drain plus when going for it armor ignore tactic could be picked up for use. Witchbrew is decent, as you said because it is not physical and can add a little bit more pressure on the hits with target. Basically I do feel like it would just gimp WE build that actually might want to go for hdebuffer route in a group, like what finisher are you gonna get when WB is ****? Most likely nothing and just add in points to tree instead. Or well, it might also just make it so that someone else in group carries hdebuff and the WE will be forever locked into OYK type build with armor ignore focus.

Like sure, turn us into just mere AW spammers again, fine whatever at least give back FM that increases crit so we will never ever use finishers, again.

Absorb tactic, sure whatever toss it into bin and give us some more dps type tactics.
And what comes to stealthers, do let us get away, especially if say regen and tanky builds are nerfed. WE do tend to just blow up against proper geared WL or WH during kd anyways, vice versa on WH if someone just jumps you, you just die if no possibility for somesort of reset. Like thanks light armor. Maybe mug up the stealth elixir to be charge or somesort of proper gap closer which does not give that high getaway possibility?

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Pahakukka
Posts: 524

Re: Grimmshimmer and fleshrenders

Post#103 » Fri Oct 10, 2025 11:10 am

Having anathema and agile escape defendable would go a long way for WH/WE resets, it would still be strong, but not automatic escape.
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dirnsterer
Posts: 213

Re: Grimmshimmer and fleshrenders

Post#104 » Fri Oct 10, 2025 11:12 am

Pahakukka wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 11:10 am Having anathema and agile escape defendable would go a long way for WH/WE resets, it would still be strong, but not automatic escape.
I hate this idea as it is. But I would be fine if the stagger effect could be parried but let us have the cool jumps and not have it not work 60% of the time (thanks high parry/block bois). Is good also to be used offensively and seeing that go into the pile of dice rolls just infuriates me for some reason.

Farrul
Posts: 694

Re: Grimmshimmer and fleshrenders

Post#105 » Fri Oct 10, 2025 11:14 am

dirnsterer wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 10:39 amHaving played WE forever and ever from live till now I do feel like gimping finishers is something I would not allow. They have always had such a horrible finishers thanks to how the game works
Now that this got a little derailed into another WE thread( there was already a decent discussion in the WE vs WH thread about the very same issue).

I agree nerfing Witch brew isn't needed, in fact nerfing Witch elf is not what the devs should be focusing on in the dps patches. This is too narrow minded.

What the WE needs is a rework of the middle tree into something that fits the carrer of a stealth class( i.e not being a stealthed tank).

The entire ''def we regen'' thing is somehing which imho should never had existed in the first place, it's not a tank class but a dps class with stealth and powerful disengage tools. Hence the balance issues with the spec.

Hopefully the devs will realize that after all these years, and rework that which needs to be and improve stuff which may be underpowered.

Seems to me, none def WE is a little underpowered at the moment compared to WH, which in turn might be a little on the weaker side compared to other dps classes, hence both of them hopefully will get a worthy update in the dps patches.

dirnsterer
Posts: 213

Re: Grimmshimmer and fleshrenders

Post#106 » Fri Oct 10, 2025 11:23 am

Farrul wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 11:14 am
dirnsterer wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 10:39 amHaving played WE forever and ever from live till now I do feel like gimping finishers is something I would not allow. They have always had such a horrible finishers thanks to how the game works
Now that this got a little derailed into another WE thread( there was already a decent discussion in the WE vs WH thread about the very same issue).

I agree nerfing Witch brew isn't needed, in fact nerfing Witch elf is not what the devs should be focusing on in the dps patches. This is too narrow minded.

What the WE needs is a rework of the middle tree into something that fits the carrer of a stealth class( i.e not being a stealthed tank).

The entire ''def we regen'' thing is somehing which imho should never had existed in the first place, it's not a tank class but a dps class with stealth and powerful disengage tools. Hence the balance issues with the spec.

Hopefully the devs will realize that after all these years, and rework that which needs to be and improve stuff which may be underpowered.

Seems to me, none def WE is a little underpowered at the moment compared to WH, which in turn might be a little on the weaker side compared to other dps classes, hence both of them hopefully will get a worthy update in the dps patches.
Yeah sorry for derail, but point is do not shoot the career to the point other parts of it just get gutted. Like give some armor debuff / ignore stuff in, toss out proc stuff. Deliberate abilities that deal with high avoidance and need to be used smartly in dmg windows. Something like that.

nocturnalguest
Posts: 745

Re: Grimmshimmer and fleshrenders

Post#107 » Fri Oct 10, 2025 11:56 am

dirnsterer wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 11:23 am Yeah sorry for derail, but point is do not shoot the career to the point other parts of it just get gutted. Like give some armor debuff / ignore stuff in, toss out proc stuff. Deliberate abilities that deal with high avoidance and need to be used smartly in dmg windows. Something like that.
Full support on not nerfing WE.

Both WE/WH definitely can use alot of QoL improvements, total mastery rework is inevitable imo and unique role for each content (solo, smallscale, orvr) are to be designed and built. Something has to be done with finishers for WE, or even both WE/WH they should be somewhat similar realmwide, copycat design principles as now for RP/Zeal, proactive, good design imo. I do hope they wont be getting AoE but rather really strong cleaves. Imo they do need some "shutdown" 1v1 specs but those have to have counters balanced by efforts put in regards to execute-counter, dont think them getting "kill within KD" gonna do any good so something along the lines of being able to control one target (maybe even some mini versions of CC without immunities), they also are obliged to have spiked burst with obvious enough rotations, so they dmg cant be on dots or sustains dps, all their abilities have to be combos&finishers (mara finisher, dps wp finishers are very good design examples imo). Cleave builds, control builds and ST smallscale builds should be clearly separated with a possibility to mix in cleave+st but with some trade offs. Cleave builds should also have unique utility, morale pump/drain could stay for that purpose i guess. And as was mentioned absorb tactic put in line with rest abilities (so 375 absorb and not on crit but as rest on being hit with similar % with icd).

Atm its unclear what they should be doing outside of 6mens (either as 6v6, regular SC or ST city groups). They have no role whatsoever. Thats the first thing to fix imo.

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