Assault Shadow Warrior AoE Detaunt?

[Everdin]

Of course a player like Saiho would be here asking for MORE buffs to a overbalanced class.

P.S: Saiho Saying you can make changes to ASW without affecting RSH is a complete & utter lie. More dishonest narratives that only self to further alienate this game.

Idk why you feel so attacked by me in particular, but it is funny how you say its a complete & utter lie, when on page 1 another poster already gave an example on how to buff ASW without affecting RSW.

By putting AoE Detaunt on Merciless Soldier tactic which requires 12 Points in assault tree, you effectively only buff ASW Because that tactic ONLY increases dmg of ASW Abilities.

There, a ranged SW cannot invest 12 points into Assault tree, and neither can they give up an entire tactic slot just to gain more dmg on assault abilities.


Atleast try to be a tad bit intellectual when coming out the gate so aggressively.

There is no such thing as "only" ASW, this is part of the point I was trying to make earlier. If you are assault specced, you are still 90%+ of a skirmish SW on account of range tactic not being a thing and there in general just not being very much interesting stuff in the masteries or tactics, outside of things that greatly benefit all specs. Skirmish SW in fact has 0 mandatory tactics, only optional damage boosts here and there. Even taking Guerilla Training isn't a huge reach for RvR, your cost would be No Respite and melee KD. But then you also have the ability to take No Respite to begin with which also boosts skirmish damage.

The true opportunity cost paid here is ranged burst on account of the scout kit. This used to be a non-issue, and you mostly paid opportunity cost related to range and CC. It is now an issue because the scout kit is so strong and you don't need to pay for range anyways. Skirmish is great in its own right, it doesn't actually need the scout kit to function, the entire playstyle was effectively made core to the class more so than being a mastery spec. The path back to melee hybrid SW goes through scout being tuned away from pure frontloaded burst, but with how solid skirmish actually is in its own, there absolutely still needs to be opportunity cost to it if this were to happen. The proposed change would likely be enough to tip things over.

The biggest factor holding Assault back is the strength of ranged SW. And of coure, melee needs either tiny engagements or a group to even be a thing, so go figure why absolutely no one is actually even trying to pull anything off with it with how much easier it is to just do pewpew in a solo-trio or whatever slop you can get in the moment. There simply isn't a tangible gain in burst or killing power by going melee hybrid over pure range, outside of very specific more brawl oriented spaces with a group, and not because the melee kit lacks damage.

You, referring to a tactitc that no longer exists and calling a healdebuff "not interesing stuff" shows you lack of knowledge about the topic

[what63]

Idk why you feel so attacked by me in particular, but it is funny how you say its a complete & utter lie, when on page 1 another poster already gave an example on how to buff ASW without affecting RSW.

By putting AoE Detaunt on Merciless Soldier tactic which requires 12 Points in assault tree, you effectively only buff ASW Because that tactic ONLY increases dmg of ASW Abilities.

There, a ranged SW cannot invest 12 points into Assault tree, and neither can they give up an entire tactic slot just to gain more dmg on assault abilities.


Atleast try to be a tad bit intellectual when coming out the gate so aggressively.

There is no such thing as "only" ASW, this is part of the point I was trying to make earlier. If you are assault specced, you are still 90%+ of a skirmish SW on account of range tactic not being a thing and there in general just not being very much interesting stuff in the masteries or tactics, outside of things that greatly benefit all specs. Skirmish SW in fact has 0 mandatory tactics, only optional damage boosts here and there. Even taking Guerilla Training isn't a huge reach for RvR, your cost would be No Respite and melee KD. But then you also have the ability to take No Respite to begin with which also boosts skirmish damage.

The true opportunity cost paid here is ranged burst on account of the scout kit. This used to be a non-issue, and you mostly paid opportunity cost related to range and CC. It is now an issue because the scout kit is so strong and you don't need to pay for range anyways. Skirmish is great in its own right, it doesn't actually need the scout kit to function, the entire playstyle was effectively made core to the class more so than being a mastery spec. The path back to melee hybrid SW goes through scout being tuned away from pure frontloaded burst, but with how solid skirmish actually is in its own, there absolutely still needs to be opportunity cost to it if this were to happen. The proposed change would likely be enough to tip things over.

The biggest factor holding Assault back is the strength of ranged SW. And of coure, melee needs either tiny engagements or a group to even be a thing, so go figure why absolutely no one is actually even trying to pull anything off with it with how much easier it is to just do pewpew in a solo-trio or whatever slop you can get in the moment. There simply isn't a tangible gain in burst or killing power by going melee hybrid over pure range, outside of very specific more brawl oriented spaces with a group, and not because the melee kit lacks damage.

I can tell that you must have limited experience with ASW, or even Skirmish SW for that matter.

The biggest factor holding ASW back is not the strength of Ranged SW. Its the fact that It has none of the tools it needs to function, it had more tools back then which actually made ASW meta. You had movement speed on Swift Slash, you had a ranged KD that didnt occupy the same skill as your takedown slow, it didnt require vengeance AND it was usable from Assault stance. Assault had far more tools back then, which has since been taken away and why ASW Is currently bad. Swift Slash is a dead skill, its DMG Doesnt warrant losing out on your Auto attack damage + other skills. It was used purely for utility movement speed, so you could run down Shamans with movement speed, or fleeing targets etc. Its a dead skill we dont use it. In Assault Stance you only functionally have 5 Abilities currently. Grim Slash, Crosscut, Brutal Assault & Draw blood & KD. (6 if you count Shadow Sting from Skirmish Tree)

It lacks an AOE Taunt, It lacks any form of movement speed buff (Anyone can literally just WALK away from you) It lacks a Slow break, meaning if youre ever slowed as an ASW youre effectively permanently crippled, and being Assault you will get slowed because you face every other melee class that has slows.

Now Skirmish on the other hand, is entirely relegated to an AOE Warband DPS dealer, that is all it does. It has incredibly poor single target damage, its an incredibly bad dueler vs other ranged targets. Loses every matchup unless youre playing scout, which Assault also does. Skirmish is acceptable versus melee, and assault is only good vs melee. Infact its so bad that every Scout high RR player like Awbzz, ONLY Swaps into Skirmish for Guerilla Tactic buff and literally use eagle eye IN that stance. Since you lose out on your silence and such. Its literlaly just a tactic bot stance you swap into till you can go back to Scout.

Any Magus, Ranged Squig Herder, Sorc etc will all DESTROY a Skirmish SW Without thinking twice due to your poor burst and lack of range. You ONLY Play Skirmish if you want to aoe in warbands with split tactic + flame arrow. Scout is, in its current state the only viable spec for anything outside of WB Play.

Assault is only playable with a guard and heal, even then it really is not that good. Sure you gain 3k armor, but you still lack an AOE Detaunt. So Shamans smoke you, sorcs smoke you, 2h chosens absolutely smoke you. Because youre a class sitting on literally 0 toughness, all you have is armor and wounds and no way to prevent damage when being trained by multiple targets due to lacking any form of aoe mitigation.

"Back then" being when? Before the meme rework, Eye Shot was 13pt Skirmish, and usable in scout/skirmish iirc- not that you could feasibly really go for it. Swift Strikes was okay enough at one point indeed for the movementspeed. Until shadowstep, which in combination with whirling pin was more than enough. That being said, currently the channel gets both 25% crit chance and 50% crit damage from Merciless Soldier unless the "bugfix" was reverted. May still not be better than AAs, all I will say is that it most certainly deals more damage now. Draw Blood also gained both benefits when I tested.

Anyways, you're still neglecting to account for the ranged kit, in every aspect of every argument that pertains to melee. I won't speak too much to my experience as none is very recent, but I played SW in everything from 6v6 to guild WB bombing as far back as CQ LA spam in one of the more "competitive" guilds at the time. This also includes plenty of soloing as ASW, supporting as skirmish, scout shenanigans both solo and in 6-12 mans, assault in rvr 6 mans, really, you name it. And it was in fact my very first character on live, allthough being a wee teenager at the time the results were so-so :^)

While my view is somewhat based on nostalgia- ASW functioned very, very well from the second the initial buffs went live, even with the warts it had at the time. It has gained much since then. Not least on account of the ranged kit dealing SIGNIFICANTLY more damage, even being buffed as recently as two(?) patches ago. You seem to be stuck in a mindset that all you should do as assault, is to ensure that you get to a target, and stick to that target, and if it doesn't die while you are in melee, it's GG. While it would be fun to be a WH and all, this simply isn't what the overall concept of the class is, and it never was. Every melee can get kited. ASW gets to deal damage while getting kited pretty dang hard. With a group, you have the ability to remain engaged and facilitate for the rest of a group to engage aswell, in situations where most other melee can do nothing but wait for an opportunity. The fact that the ranged kit is capable of far higher damage than it was for years and years isn't a detriment to this playstyle either. The problem is, again, quite simply that with the effort required to run a proper melee group, you just won't. It's easier and more instant dopamine to throw Festers.

ASW also lacks neither a slow break nor AoE detaunt. This is once again a matter of opportunity cost. FM functions perfectly well within the confines of being a HYBRID. Detaunt tactic is perfectly affordable when needed. If you min-max purely for damage, of course you will do only damage. Taking detaunt is a marginal loss in damage, yes, but that's just how games with character building work, right? You are still capable of flinging yourself all around the place while having an entire section of kit and class mechanic relegated to dealing with situations where you cannot or should not be in melee range, so why should the melee kit be tooled in a way where these tools take a backseat, as opposed to ensuring you actually use your entire kit? The class is designed around picking the right toolset for a given situation. Not around making a single one of them work for everything.

Magus, Sorc, ranged squig and especially 2h chosen are barely inconveniences in a group setting, which is where the skirmish kit really comes into its own. Yeah, Awbzz and other SWs of the day mainly just pugfarm utilizing pulls into burst at best when grouping, and kiting out instead of taking any actual fights. This is a valid way to play, no argument there. That does very much not mean that you cannot build groups meant to engage and win fights as opposed to kiting and capitalize on opportunities for easy kills with no real aim of "winning". Simply put, do not confuse pug farming with building a group that you want to be capable of dismantling even other organized 6's head on. Skirmish is very much capable of engaging in the latter in the context of an actual, capable 6 man. There are so many aspects to this game, just looking at any one of them in a vacumm will get us absolutely nowhere. And the skirmish kit most certainly is competitive in any setting where consistent damage with great mobility and survivability is an objective.

Assault and skirmish may not be the best things ever, but they for damn sure are better than they used to be, while already being plenty viable before the whole soft rework thing. Having played everything the game has to offer on multiple classes, I think it's very easy to get lost in just how massive the throughput is on the whole on SW, if not coming from a similar place.

[what63]

Idk why you feel so attacked by me in particular, but it is funny how you say its a complete & utter lie, when on page 1 another poster already gave an example on how to buff ASW without affecting RSW.

By putting AoE Detaunt on Merciless Soldier tactic which requires 12 Points in assault tree, you effectively only buff ASW Because that tactic ONLY increases dmg of ASW Abilities.

There, a ranged SW cannot invest 12 points into Assault tree, and neither can they give up an entire tactic slot just to gain more dmg on assault abilities.


Atleast try to be a tad bit intellectual when coming out the gate so aggressively.

There is no such thing as "only" ASW, this is part of the point I was trying to make earlier. If you are assault specced, you are still 90%+ of a skirmish SW on account of range tactic not being a thing and there in general just not being very much interesting stuff in the masteries or tactics, outside of things that greatly benefit all specs. Skirmish SW in fact has 0 mandatory tactics, only optional damage boosts here and there. Even taking Guerilla Training isn't a huge reach for RvR, your cost would be No Respite and melee KD. But then you also have the ability to take No Respite to begin with which also boosts skirmish damage.

The true opportunity cost paid here is ranged burst on account of the scout kit. This used to be a non-issue, and you mostly paid opportunity cost related to range and CC. It is now an issue because the scout kit is so strong and you don't need to pay for range anyways. Skirmish is great in its own right, it doesn't actually need the scout kit to function, the entire playstyle was effectively made core to the class more so than being a mastery spec. The path back to melee hybrid SW goes through scout being tuned away from pure frontloaded burst, but with how solid skirmish actually is in its own, there absolutely still needs to be opportunity cost to it if this were to happen. The proposed change would likely be enough to tip things over.

The biggest factor holding Assault back is the strength of ranged SW. And of coure, melee needs either tiny engagements or a group to even be a thing, so go figure why absolutely no one is actually even trying to pull anything off with it with how much easier it is to just do pewpew in a solo-trio or whatever slop you can get in the moment. There simply isn't a tangible gain in burst or killing power by going melee hybrid over pure range, outside of very specific more brawl oriented spaces with a group, and not because the melee kit lacks damage.

You, referring to a tactitc that no longer exists and calling a healdebuff "not interesing stuff" shows you lack of knowledge about the topic

The fact it no longer exists is my point exactly. Healdebuff is placed conveniently to allow it to function as a default, and is indeed mandatory. Had it been at 13pt we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Zxul]

5 drop spirit dmg from crosscut, we are stacking ws and changing dmg type while von is actually debuffs this skill than bufs.

So finally someone admits that physical dmg isn't worse that magical, make sure to tell Farrul.

[what63]

5 drop spirit dmg from crosscut, we are stacking ws and changing dmg type while von is actually debuffs this skill than bufs.

So finally someone admits that physical dmg isn't worse that magical, make sure to tell Farrul.

Missed that one. Absolutely spot on.

[Everdin]

5 drop spirit dmg from crosscut, we are stacking ws and changing dmg type while von is actually debuffs this skill than bufs.

So finally someone admits that physical dmg isn't worse that magical, make sure to tell Farrul.

perfect example of your forum presence, taking one ability or sentence and repeat it out of any context.

In order to function as a aSW or skirmisher, you need to stack very high weapon skill, so a magic ability seems out of place. In fact, the need to stack high ws is exactly the point why magic damage is superior

[what63]

5 drop spirit dmg from crosscut, we are stacking ws and changing dmg type while von is actually debuffs this skill than bufs.

So finally someone admits that physical dmg isn't worse that magical, make sure to tell Farrul.

perfect example of your forum presence, taking one ability or sentence and repeat it out of any context.

In order to function as a aSW or skirmisher, you need to stack very high weapon skill, so a magic ability seems out of place. In fact, the need to stack high ws is exactly the point why magic damage is superior

Not at all. The ability to stack WS lets it deal more damage against most targets if allowed to take advatage of it. It's not out of place thematically, it's out of place for actual practical reasons.

[Everdin]

There is no such thing as "only" ASW, this is part of the point I was trying to make earlier. If you are assault specced, you are still 90%+ of a skirmish SW on account of range tactic not being a thing and there in general just not being very much interesting stuff in the masteries or tactics, outside of things that greatly benefit all specs. Skirmish SW in fact has 0 mandatory tactics, only optional damage boosts here and there. Even taking Guerilla Training isn't a huge reach for RvR, your cost would be No Respite and melee KD. But then you also have the ability to take No Respite to begin with which also boosts skirmish damage.

The true opportunity cost paid here is ranged burst on account of the scout kit. This used to be a non-issue, and you mostly paid opportunity cost related to range and CC. It is now an issue because the scout kit is so strong and you don't need to pay for range anyways. Skirmish is great in its own right, it doesn't actually need the scout kit to function, the entire playstyle was effectively made core to the class more so than being a mastery spec. The path back to melee hybrid SW goes through scout being tuned away from pure frontloaded burst, but with how solid skirmish actually is in its own, there absolutely still needs to be opportunity cost to it if this were to happen. The proposed change would likely be enough to tip things over.

The biggest factor holding Assault back is the strength of ranged SW. And of coure, melee needs either tiny engagements or a group to even be a thing, so go figure why absolutely no one is actually even trying to pull anything off with it with how much easier it is to just do pewpew in a solo-trio or whatever slop you can get in the moment. There simply isn't a tangible gain in burst or killing power by going melee hybrid over pure range, outside of very specific more brawl oriented spaces with a group, and not because the melee kit lacks damage.

You, referring to a tactitc that no longer exists and calling a healdebuff "not interesing stuff" shows you lack of knowledge about the topic

The fact it no longer exists is my point exactly. Healdebuff is placed conveniently to allow it to function as a default, and is indeed mandatory. Had it been at 13pt we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Your point was that the whole tree is not worth speccing, the fact this tactic was replaced by armor pen, which is mandatory to do any damage with skirmish seems not important to your conclusion.

[what63]

You, referring to a tactitc that no longer exists and calling a healdebuff "not interesing stuff" shows you lack of knowledge about the topic

The fact it no longer exists is my point exactly. Healdebuff is placed conveniently to allow it to function as a default, and is indeed mandatory. Had it been at 13pt we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Your point was that the whole tree is not worth speccing, the fact this tactic was replaced by armor pen, which is mandatory to do any damage with skirmish seems not important to your conclusion.

You are 90% of a skirmish SW, is what is written, for obvious reasons I didn't say you don't need a SINGLE point spent, but you really only go for that one thing in there, maybe spec the AoE tactic to be able to hotswap for a funnel or whatever. You may misread or miscomprehend, but you may not alter what I actually wrote.

False re armorpen tactic. You can reach more than sufficient penetration as far as light armor and medium armor is concerned without it. Not least because the options for replacement include +15% conditional damage, which will beat the throughput of more pen on most targets (yes yes, get over it, I get that it's hard to comprehend that penetration has value strictly tied to opposing stats, but please), and a tactic that grants about 9% worth of pen for all physical abilities, which in the context of an assault specced SW isn't an unreasonable thing to bring forth.

In the context of a group you could also reasonably expect both single and plenty of double armor debuffs to be provided that exceed Acid Arrow. Penetration simply goes through various stages from utterly wasted investment to incredible value based on specific target and debuffs present. In most cases where assault+skirmish is concerned and some semblance of group building takes place, you really don't need that 90% pen figure, as you won't be duelling or hitting tanks too much.

Add: Really, I should have pointed to even more of my initial post, but honestly just re-read it. Such a poor attempt lol.

[saiho]

Lets go through this

Swift Strikes was okay enough at one point indeed for the movementspeed. Until shadowstep, which in combination with whirling pin was more than enough. That being said, currently the channel gets both 25% crit chance and 50% crit damage from Merciless Soldier unless the "bugfix" was reverted. May still not be better than AAs, all I will say is that it most certainly deals more damage now. Draw Blood also gained both benefits when I tested.

Swift Strikes was good for its utility, which you yourself say until Shadowstep which in combination with whilring pin was more than enough. Well, the shadowstep you say is such a saving grace is the single clunkiest feelsbad ability in the entire game in its current form. It has been nerfed to be slower now, which indirectly nerfed it in 3 ways. You cannot use it as a gap closer anymore, because people walk away from it and you get hit and die during it. It is so slow that when you appear at your target, you apply a mini stun to yourself that yet again lets them walk away from you, which defeats the purpose of a gap closer & also wastes an EXTRA GCD ontop of the GCD you just used pressing shadowstep itself. It is now only usable in POINT Blank melee range for the defensive buff, which also was nerfed from 25% Defensives + 25% Auto attack speed, to just 15% defensives.

As for Swift Strikes, it was good because of its movement speed. Which is also now gone, so shadowstep u cant chase with anymore, swift strikes you cant chase with anymore. You say it deals more damage, it does. But nowhere CLOSE to just spamming Grim slash + auto attacks would get you not to mention the very expensive AP cost of using it only to deal less damage. Draw blood deals good damage but thats it.

Anyways, you're still neglecting to account for the ranged kit

I am not neglecting the ranged kit at all, however the ranged kit for ASW doesnt give ASW much to work with. You keep saying SW is a hybrid class, which by design it should be. But by practicality has never been, not in live, not in this server, not in any balance patch. Not ever. If you spread yourself out too much you accomplish nothing as SW, you need to specialize.

And it was in fact my very first character on live, allthough being a wee teenager at the time the results were so-so :^)

On live, shadow warrior was quite literally the worst class in the entire game hands down no doubt about it, its not even argued its universally agreed that it was so **** wank. The hybrid class didnt matter at all back then

ASW functioned very, very well from the second the initial buffs went live,

It did, ASW was very good after its buffed. But since then, all the buffs have been removed and its actually been just as weak as before the buffs.

You seem to be stuck in a mindset that all you should do as assault, is to ensure that you get to a target, and stick to that target, and if it doesn't die while you are in melee, it's GG.

In no way shape or form am I stuck in the mindset that you should sit in melee, every fight is opened in Skirmish for every ASW to gain an early upperhand. But all your damage is realistically tied into your ASW Stance. UNLESS Youre fighting tanks/choppas which are very easy to kite, but then ASW Is a hard counter to choppas. So the point is null for skirmish there since ASW carries that matchup. The ranged matchups where its supposed to help, it cant do enough to actually be impactful, and you as an ASW cant reach the target or stay on the target due to no MS Buff or root/slow breaks. So you never get out any significant damage before you die. Burst is king in this game, and always has been.

The fact that the ranged kit is capable of far higher damage than it was for years and years isn't a detriment to this playstyle either.

The ability to deal damage matters not if all the damage you deal is padded damage, youre not killing anyone or anything unless you have applicable burst in the current state of the game.

ASW also lacks neither a slow break nor AoE detaunt. Detaunt tactic is perfectly affordable when needed. If you min-max purely for damage, of course you will do only damage. Taking detaunt is a marginal loss in damage

In an absolute best case scenario, going for aoe detaunt tactic. Youre losing 15% of your overall damage in the entirety of your kit, only to use a tactic slot that other classes dont have to. You like to mention that SW is a hybrid class, well DPS DOK Gets AOE Detaunt baked into one of their mandatory tactics, and they are by no means less of a hybrid class. Theyre damage dealers AND healers who can repeatedly heal themselves to max hp. Its an actual hybrid class to SW, it does more than one job, yet doesnt need to suffer the same fate of the taunt.

So why should the melee kit be tooled in a way where these tools take a backseat, as opposed to ensuring you actually use your entire kit?

The entire kit in this case being 3 usable GCD's at the cost of swapping your stance and losing out on all your defensive stats, only to gain no extra offensive stats during the stance. So you had 5 Abilities prior in ASW, now you have 3 extra at the cost of a 5 second CD stance swap. Congratulations, youre now up to 8 abilities that serve a purpose. Still a far cry from any other class if youre specced into ASW. (These 3 being Takedown, acid arrow & broadhead arrow

Magus, Sorc, ranged squig and especially 2h chosen are barely inconveniences in a group setting

This is probably the single most absurd thing ive ever read in my life, Sorc is quite literally THE class that can instantly remove someone from a 6v6 group setting if they are not properly dealt with.

Skirmish is very much capable of engaging in the latter in the context of an actual, capable 6 man. There are so many aspects to this game, just looking at any one of them in a vacumm will get us absolutely nowhere. And the skirmish kit most certainly is competitive in any setting where consistent damage with great mobility and survivability is an objective.

Problem is, in no competitive setting is mobility and survivability the true objective. The ONE Good thing Skirmish brings to a fight, is shadow sting. Which every other spec gets with ease anyways. They provide no actual burst damage in comparison to ASW or Scout. And in this day and age, burst damage is the thing that matters. Padded damage does not mean anything, consistent damage is laughable outside of Warbands. Even then its questionable