Magic damage kings after ini patch

[Farrul]

simple numbers and facts within the game, no idea what scenario you are referring to.


Dodge = Disrupt, all the ranged carrers need a nerf to their hit rate, casters and archers alike, although archers at least have to build WS like phys melee, they don't have on a platter itemization privilege of magic carrers.

The melees who need to stack WS have extra stat tactics, so investing into WS is no problem without ignoring other stats.

Tactic is an investment , it occupies 1/4 of the tactic slots available. Where is the magic tactic ''requirement'' to increase their magic penetration vs resistance? Right they dont need or requires one since getting all the penetration needed for free.

Regardless of tactics a big raw stat investment into WS is still required to be efficient like Magic,

Hence back to the imbalance, phys need to invest a lot ,magic does not need to invest anything . To reach 70% penetration for Enginner he needs more than 600 raw WS from itemization plus tactic slot occupied, for magus to reach the same he needs nothing, and will even often hit 80% penetration as per your own example.

[Farrul]

Physical damage also gets autoattack which by itself is easily a 25%+ dmg buff. This is often forgotten.

Autoattacks that are worth talking about are often 2 handed, which means melee range. This is a far worse advantage than having inherent 100 range on your attacks like all these magic casters do.

I have no idea where you get 25% from, it just depends on the target and still big WS investment is needed for it, are you hitting a Shaman with a WL? Autoattacks will hurt, are you hitting regen chosen/mara with engineer autoattacks? Lol.

The efficent of magic is that it need no investments, penetrates everthing regardless of armor class, or resistance buffs. Phys can never match that.

[Farrul]

Yeah, with the exception that you are claiming magic damage as supperior on the basis of the receiving party having base resist minus a debuff. This is not how things work out when lodging a complaint of this form.

Magic is superior regardless of base resistance or buffed resistance, my example of base resistance on a BIS toon show the extreme disparity in efficiency compared to the inferior phys penetration( + 90% magic penetration).

With buffs (both ways) magic is till way more efficent, since it requires no investments, resistance softcaps at 40% mitigation , beyond that you're just adding a buffer for the debuffs and a small % increase, if you want to get into the extreme to protect yourself vs magic , know that Magic did not need to invest anything to add 60%+ penetration and counter your extreme efforts just fine.

Meanwhile Phys need to invest into the extreme to be efficient like magic, unless all it wants to hurt is light armor targets.

Disrupt most certainly does not operate under the same weight as dodge on the whole.

In practice you're having no avoidance vs magic or archers, unless there is a hold the line tank, hence the whole point is practical, if they start adding meaningful defences against ranged hitters outside of Hold the line and a few abilities then a comparison in efficiency may become more relevant. Point is ranged need a nerf and we all know it since they're pretty much hitting all the time without a shield tank present. Which is absurd balancing in any game, not just RoR.

And also, any increase in global ranged avoidance would necessitate reducing the amount of the buffed potential, meaning HTL nerf at the very least. Disregarding HTL in its entirety would never be a valid option, even if someone were to humor the notion that a baseline discussion should disregard its existence. Which is, of course, somewhat of a daft proposition to begin with.

Can't balance ranged hitting based on 1 ability, then screw up everyone all the rest of the time, hence if ranged balance is done with only Hold the Line in mind, then this ability obviously should be toned down for the greater good of balancing, imho 30% would suffice.

[Sulorie]

Those casters use a tactic slot too to have the resist debuff or have an easy to kill pet for the debuff.
All of them wear robe and are almost naked after armor debuffs and penetration is applied.
Melee AA contribute to a large part of total damage on melee DD, something casters can only dream of.

For what classes are are arguing here, what classes struggle in comparison to magic casters?

[Lion1986]

ppl complain after 10 years of melee meatball meta. Srsly guys remember the grass is greener on the other side!

[Aluviya]

Physical damage also gets autoattack which by itself is easily a 25%+ dmg buff. This is often forgotten.

Autoattacks that are worth talking about are often 2 handed, which means melee range. This is a far worse advantage than having inherent 100 range on your attacks like all these magic casters do.

I have no idea where you get 25% from, it just depends on the target and still big WS investment is needed for it, are you hitting a Shaman with a WL? Autoattacks will hurt, are you hitting regen chosen/mara with engineer autoattacks? Lol.

The efficent of magic is that it need no investments, penetrates everthing regardless of armor class, or resistance buffs. Phys can never match that.

In small scale games Autoattacks do matter, even almost more than anything else matters. Just a few examples here out of recent games from others games the 25 % isn't really off:
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/kill/37708448
Killdamage: 10k from Choppa, 10k from Mara (both not 2handed specs) 4k from Chosen 3,7k from BG
If you put all together what the impact here is from Autoattack its beyond 30%
Or here - same pictures :
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/kill/38020102.
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/kill/36906785
You can actually check any content, any MDPS meanwhile you'll see in most cases the Autoattacks are the highest portion of the Killdamage and rarely abilities (and if, most likely channeling abilities because you can't Autoattack alongside with it).

[what63]

Yeah, with the exception that you are claiming magic damage as supperior on the basis of the receiving party having base resist minus a debuff. This is not how things work out when lodging a complaint of this form.

Magic is superior regardless of base resistance or buffed resistance, my example of base resistance on a BIS toon show the extreme disparity in efficiency compared to the inferior phys penetration( + 90% magic penetration).

With buffs (both ways) magic is till way more efficent, since it requires no investments, resistance softcaps at 40% mitigation , beyond that you're just adding a buffer for the debuffs and a small % increase, if you want to get into the extreme to protect yourself vs magic , know that Magic did not need to invest anything to add 60%+ penetration and counter your extreme efforts just fine.

Meanwhile Phys need to invest into the extreme to be efficient like magic, unless all it wants to hurt is light armor targets.

Disrupt most certainly does not operate under the same weight as dodge on the whole.

In practice you're having no avoidance vs magic or archers, unless there is a hold the line tank, hence the whole point is practical, if they start adding meaningful defences against ranged hitters outside of Hold the line and a few abilities then a comparison in efficiency may become more relevant. Point is ranged need a nerf and we all know it since they're pretty much hitting all the time without a shield tank present. Which is absurd balancing in any game, not just RoR.

And also, any increase in global ranged avoidance would necessitate reducing the amount of the buffed potential, meaning HTL nerf at the very least. Disregarding HTL in its entirety would never be a valid option, even if someone were to humor the notion that a baseline discussion should disregard its existence. Which is, of course, somewhat of a daft proposition to begin with.

Can't balance ranged hitting based on 1 ability, then screw up everyone all the rest of the time, hence if ranged balance is done with only Hold the Line in mind, then this ability obviously should be toned down for the greater good of balancing, imho 30% would suffice.

Allright, so let's assume your methodology to be sound and apply it to armor in a very cherrypicked example with a willy nilly mindset of armorbuffs and the likes not mattering a lick: A full sovereign SW, against a full sovereign SW. Baseline armorpenetration with no talismans, no renown is 36%. Armor is 1420. After debuff of let's say 900 from Acid Arrow, armor is 520. About 12% mititgation. Right here we can show that according to your logic, there are cases where physcal damage can reach roughly the same potency as magic damage before even factoring in WS. If we calculate in the additional penetration they have, 36%, the remaining armor is 332, or about 7.5% mitigation. One could argue that WS is an absolutely **** stat to invest in by looking at this example, as the gains would be incredibly neglible due to even a weaker armordebuff turning any further investment to near naught.

Now, for very obvious reasons, the above is not universally true, as the shadow warriot could pop a blue armor potion and enter assault stance, ending up with a neat 3665 armor, or 83% mitigation. Now let's assume the same armordebuff to be present, and SW two to enter assault stance aswell, but still have no investment of talismans. This makes the armorpen out to around 44%. The end result, is that the SW on the receiving end has a net mitigation of around 35% from about 1.5k armor.

Actual investments in penetration and various other means of armorpenetration along with varying strengths of armodebuffs will alter the above figures, along with reduced armorpen buffs however rare they are. But if we take them at face value, it's easy to argue that there are cases where magic damage is weaker than physical damage, especially if we disregard your methodology of representing unbuffed values as anything close to the average case. But we can also see that a very aggressive armor figure for a DPS yields figures that are not in any way significantly north of what a magic user would face in an equal scenario. And that is with no investment in additional magical resistant other than having a buff. In reality however, magic resist talismans are of high enough value that you could easily make them into a very sound investment, the only reason they aren't seen as one, is that magic damage simply isn't a priority to counter, and despite the softcap, the utilization of them would make you end up with more mititgation from resist than you have against most phys dps if you are not HEAVILY investing in armor.

Tanks are a different matter, but here, in general RDPS especially struggle far more to even get abilities in due to HTL and various block/disrupt tactics and the likes.

In the end, multiple factors in addition to the above makes the difference in effective output far less black and white anyways. The difference in design between physical and magic damage classes are simply so far apart that there is no way to argue forth a powergap from looking at their respective resists anyways. As has been brought up, AAs are a thing, for example. These alone allow many physcal DPS to output most of their ST damage passively. Literally. Combine the raw output of AAs (which isn't universally high) with the far greater amount of outgoing hits to trigger procs and the likes, and you may see why they are so potent considering the widespread issues with proc damage over the last months.

Listen, I'm just gonna flat out say that you are entirely wrong re disrupt in a majory of matchups. Feel free to provide any math to prove the opposite. The lack of consistent debuffs and generally not awesome amount of strikethrough on the classes that matter is a simple fact. It's again a thing that slightly changes WITH GEAR AND SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT on the caster side, but with an equal investment on the receiving end you can negate such. People just don't. Disrupt should not be something you have for free. Dodge is a different matter, I agree there is no way to consistently have any dodge outside of HTL against a majority of matchups if they so choose.

I'll counter your HTL argument by just mentioning that guard exists, and is not only balanced around, but universally poses the same exact logical issues. Melee DPS have to contend with guard, RDPS have to contend with guard and HTL.

Add: Also your initial statement of someone having 10% mitigation left after a debuff in no way computes as the caster having 90% penetration. This would only be the case if the target had 100% mitigation before the debuff.

[nebelwerfer]

simple numbers and facts within the game, no idea what scenario you are referring to.


Dodge = Disrupt, all the ranged carrers need a nerf to their hit rate, casters and archers alike, although archers at least have to build WS like phys melee, they don't have on a platter itemization privilege of magic carrers.

The melees who need to stack WS have extra stat tactics, so investing into WS is no problem without ignoring other stats.

maybe this patch contributes to laying the foundation for removing the almost always mandatory main-stat tactic

[Sulorie]

maybe this patch contributes to laying the foundation for removing the almost always mandatory main-stat tactic

I doubt it since not all classes have main stat tactic for main and alternative spec. Just adding it to base stats would be unfair towards those classes.

[Fenris78]

People dont invest into magic resistances, dodge nor disrupt because :

1. Disrupt is currently penetrated 10% more than before, for free, by casters :

- Usually average disrupt/dodge chances are 2-4% from stuff +18% maxed out DD, meaning a max of 20-22%, plus a tiny amount from Willpower (saving healers who can add another 21-24%)
- Strikethrough stuff from BoS gear is about 6-8%, plus another 9-10% from mainstat.
- Most casters add another 3 to 5% (Sorc/BW and magus respectively, with base skills).
- Add tactics like elf racial (10%), and various means by other gear, talismans and consumables (1 to 10%).

In the end, at minima, casters and ranged got minimum 17% strikethrough, plus minimum debuffs > 20-22%.
Poof, you average disrupt and dodge scores are now gone, and your 20 renown points became useless.

You can even negate tanks defenses with 15% disrupt tactics (35% > 5-15%), even healers got reduced from 41-46% to 16-26%, at best (wich could be considered as useful disrupt value in the end, in this extreme case).

Same or even worse for Dodge, since you add +10% Pierce defense tactic on top of that, and you can spread then with AoE.
Still physical ranged need to build WS to be effective, as stated previously.



2. Resistances means are existing, but arent ignoring the fact the need further sacrifices, wich are not low ;
- Resist liniment is taking your only liniment slot, further rieving builds based on other stats (crits, wounds, other resistances, etc.)
- Magic resistance rings are taking your 2 or 3 ring slots
- Magic resistances are softcapped to 660, and for some reason divided by 3 (instead of 2) over that value.
- Resist talismans are only protecting against one type of magic, and purple 200 fragments do not exist, you need to make super crits to get at best a +93 magic resistance of one type.
The only other otpion if to get legendary talisman with +60 all resist, while slotting +6% disrupt should in theory hold much more value.
- Magic resistance Tactics are taking 25% of you tactic slots only to protect you from 1-2 classes at best. Pretty much all other tactics are more valuable, because more universal against damage (close combat for mdps, toughness, wounds, avoidances, etc.)
- Magic resistance Potions are taking you armor potion slot, and only protect from one damage. Plus now liniment is far superior (was +180 before, max potion is 256 for one type).

3. Magic resistances are lowered by 40-85% by easy to get (or core) skills/tactics.
- KotBS/Ch, Magus, Engineer, Runepriest, Zealot, Sham, AM and BO/SM with AoE debuffs, often core skills.
- Sorc with mandatory tactic on ST spec wich offer other benefits.
- SW/SH with tactic to ignore all resistances for 1-2 powerful skills.
- Probably forgot some.


All of this without heavy investment (no renown, only mainstat for casters, gear and base skills often doing the rest).

Hitting with 100% over greatly or very low resistances whould at least require more investment from casters, when all people on receiving end (including casters themselves just saying) need to invest 20 renwon point, heavy gear/talismans/tactic/consumables/buffs, only to be always hit 100% but with a measly 20% mitigation in the end ?

I mean, healers and casters can stack toughness and armor, plus anticrit, and be significantly resistant against most physical melee classes, while being able to hit them 100% from 100+ ft away, and kite for most ?



Proposed solutions :

1. Reduce scaling from defensive bonuses from Initiative and willpower, like 2% per 100 instead of 3% to avoid making to much discrepancies between average classes, and healers for example.
Dodge from initiative could stay on 3 per 100 maybe, because initiative is never a secondary stat on any gear.

2. Remove Strikethrough from mainstats, it was a bad idea from the beginning, because it didnt take into account various buffs (and high ones for tanks) to avoidances, stacking them with skills (HtL and other), nor the great means already needing (small or big) investment to get reasonable strikethrough (listed before).

3. Adjust various buffs to avoidances to check their efficiency in average cases.

4. Adjust magic resistances by lowering debuff values (Aoe need to be half ST one for example), in general not getting them far over 250-270.

5. Adjust buffs from consumables and such to not make them overshadowing support classes buffs, and to balance out reduction of magic resistances.

6. Make it so minimum average dodge/disrupt is around 10-15% after all strikethrough and avoidances are maxed (or with average BiS against BiS gear).
Pushing someone to 0% avoidance would mean Attacker maxed out his strikethrough with ALL available means, AND defender didnt invest any on defense, for example.

7. Maxed out Deft Defender should at least provide 10% effective dodge and disrupt against maxed out Strikethrough attackers.