Reduce the tankiness of healers and healer hybrids

[Caduceus]

3000 armor is NOT a lot of mitigation against enemies who know what they are doing. Healers need to be able to have at least this level of tankiness to survive (which isn't much). If you are failing to kill a healer, you probably have a flaw in your comp, such as lack of armor debuff. I assumed that you're a solo player because most group players that I know don't complain about the tankiness of healers.

As I noted before, I don't find this argument very convincing.

Why would healers need more survivability than DPS? DPS somehow manages, don't they? And they have to stick their necks out to fulfill their role while healers have the luxury of casting from behind friendly lines at long range.

And yet, healers have significantly more survivability since they do not have to invest in their primary stat, their gear features more defensive stats and trade-offs like Bloodlord weapons aren't even a consideration for them.

You can compare armory sheets and the difference is self-evident.

Also, please note that I'm not "complaining" that I "can't kill healers". Maybe other people on this thread are, but I'm making a point about game design.

You do know that you can get to like 850-900 willpower with only the cost of 1 tactic slot at a bis 7+2 gear right? So how can you change the scaling non-rashily if we already are that close to the softcap? I guess some non-linear scaling would do it either on WP or the abilities themselves so you'd have to run the tactic 100% of the timet, but that just sounds weird and punishing for non-bis healers.

850-900 is not that close to the soft-cap, and I would consider having to invest a tactic slot as quite a hefty cost.

[Ysaran]

As healer I can tell you this: if you change the base healing I still would not invest in WP. My survivability take the precedence on the other players. And I bet the most other healer will do the same. The only thing you can achieve decreasing base healing is decreasing TTK.

Also note that though DPS are squishier than healer they have a lot more CC/mobility to compensate. Just compare WP and WL/WH. They also have core aoe detaunt. If a WH is dying, he can just detaunt and self punt. If a WP is dying he can only pray that his tank knows how to playl, or he is fked

[Panel]

I play a healer and i cant kill dps - they are too tanky. They dont have to invest in wounds, armour or toughness to stay alive they just stack their main stat. Please reduce the effectiveness of wounds, toughness, armour and avoidance by 50% on dps - then they will have to stack those at the expense of their main stat - the resulting drop in their dps would be good for the game given how ludicrous dps levels are atm.

[akisnaakkeli]

Killing healers is only a problem for solo player dps, since somehow at some point detaunt on healer got changed to be running the same duration as the cooldown. That means a healer can put all his dmg dots on the dps and then just detaunt an heal away the remaining 50% of the dmg the dps does to them. In between the dps gets stunned knocked back or rooted. Had enough duells on my WH vs zealots, to just leave them be and not even engage them solo. The time frame inbetween the CC that you have to catch up while immune is just filled by their detaunt and then they restart the CC/kiting circle.

Detaunts on Healers have always been 100% uptime single target. Am/Shammy Wp/Dok can have perma aoe detaunt/auto detaunt with tactics. Except book/chalice Wp/Dok Ae detaunt tactic has been nerfed to uselesness. RoR.builders - Witch Hunter This build will do insane dmg and Survival is NICE with Sanctified Bullets. Ive dueled 2 rr80 zealots with my rr4+ Wh and i lost 1 of 8 duels. I replaced Crit dmg tactic with SB because rr40+ just wont have enough crit against rr80. Armour debuff proc wpn + Quick Escape + if you want "bulletproof" then take Snare proc wpn as well.

[Panel]

3000 armor is NOT a lot of mitigation against enemies who know what they are doing. Healers need to be able to have at least this level of tankiness to survive (which isn't much). If you are failing to kill a healer, you probably have a flaw in your comp, such as lack of armor debuff. I assumed that you're a solo player because most group players that I know don't complain about the tankiness of healers.

As I noted before, I don't find this argument very convincing.

Why would healers need more survivability than DPS? DPS somehow manages, don't they?

And they have to stick their necks out to fulfill their role while healers have the luxury of casting from behind friendly lines at long range.

And yet, healers have significantly more survivability since they do not have to invest in their primary stat, their gear features more defensive stats and trade-offs like Bloodlord weapons aren't even a consideration for them.

You can compare armory sheets and the difference is self-evident.

Also, please note that I'm not "complaining" that I "can't kill healers". Maybe other people on this thread are, but I'm making a point about game design.

You do know that you can get to like 850-900 willpower with only the cost of 1 tactic slot at a bis 7+2 gear right? So how can you change the scaling non-rashily if we already are that close to the softcap? I guess some non-linear scaling would do it either on WP or the abilities themselves so you'd have to run the tactic 100% of the timet, but that just sounds weird and punishing for non-bis healers.

850-900 is not that close to the soft-cap, and I would consider having to invest a tactic slot as quite a hefty cost.

They manage because they get healed

[Sulorie]

Did you try to assist like any proper DD?

DPS full tuned into glass cannon single target should be able to threaten to kill a healer if given uptime

Depends on exact class match-up and circumstances. In a group fight the healer just has to survive long enough for teammates to deal with the attacker in back line. To secure a kill you assist in a group fight. Solo WE/WH in enemy back line usually die for good reasons.

[Uchoo]

As I noted before, I don't find this argument very convincing.

Why would healers need more survivability than DPS? DPS somehow manages, don't they? And they have to stick their necks out to fulfill their role while healers have the luxury of casting from behind friendly lines at long range.

And yet, healers have significantly more survivability since they do not have to invest in their primary stat, their gear features more defensive stats and trade-offs like Bloodlord weapons aren't even a consideration for them.

You can compare armory sheets and the difference is self-evident.

Also, please note that I'm not "complaining" that I "can't kill healers". Maybe other people on this thread are, but I'm making a point about game design.

Well the answer is obvious. DPS get Guard and Tank support in most situations. That's how DPS manages. A DPS with Guard is tankier than a Healer. You have 2 Guards in a standard party of 6 so if everyone needs Guard to be able to function anywhere near enemies, it just doesn't work. Couple that with the fact that a Healer under pressure is healing their group very inefficiently at best, it simply makes sense to be able to handle some damage while you let your HoTs tick.

I literally provided screenshots of the math and the evidence. My BIS Zealot in armor talismans is barely different than a Zealot using different talismans against a group using just ONE important debuff. That isn't convincing to you? How squishy do I need to be for you to feel that a fight against me is fair? How nerfed should my healing be because I only have 800 willpower?

Furthermore, even if something was to change.. Oh let's say base healing is nerfed so Healers are healing 10% less. We will still build the same way because that's simply the best way to operate as a Healer. If you are "safely healing behind the lines" and you get flanked or a RDPS squad opens on you or 3 Witch Elves, you'll just die before the tank can get to you to help and your whole group can't fight anymore because you fell over.

And Finally, why is a Healer needing to stack main stat better game design than a healer stacking defense?

[Caduceus]

You have 2 Guards in a standard party of 6 so if everyone needs Guard to be able to function anywhere near enemies, it just doesn't work.

Guard swapping is a staple of group play. I'm sure you know this. Large-scale RvR is perhaps the one setting where Guard swapping isn't a logical option, but my argument doesn't really involve large-scale RvR because the dynamics are different. (Getting caught by the blob means certain death, guard or no guard, defensive stats or no defensive stats)

In addition, healers don't have to be close to enemies to do their role.

My BIS Zealot in armor talismans is barely different than a Zealot using different talismans against a group using just ONE important debuff. That isn't convincing to you? How squishy do I need to be for you to feel that a fight against me is fair? How nerfed should my healing be because I only have 800 willpower?

The talismans made like a 6% difference in physical damage taken? I'd consider that quite significant, actually.

And consider that DPS get none of that. Nor do they get much defensive stats on their gear. So again, if you're making the point that healers have it rough, DPS should have it worse.

Furthermore, even if something was to change.. Oh let's say base healing is nerfed so Healers are healing 10% less. We will still build the same way because that's simply the best way to operate as a Healer.

Luckily, you're free to build your healer however you want, and having more than one option is good. Personally, I would be much more interested in increasing my healing, since I don't feel like I particularly need all those extra defenses at all.

And Finally, why is a Healer needing to stack main stat better game design than a healer stacking defense?

Let me answer with a question that will illustrate my point: what would happen if every DPS got their maximum burst for free, and was free to stack defensive stats without sacrificing any damage?


With that, I'll leave this discussion for now and may return to it later.

[salazarn]

As healer I can tell you this: if you change the base healing I still would not invest in WP. My survivability take the precedence on the other players. And I bet the most other healer will do the same. The only thing you can achieve decreasing base healing is decreasing TTK.

Also note that though DPS are squishier than healer they have a lot more CC/mobility to compensate. Just compare WP and WL/WH. They also have core aoe detaunt. If a WH is dying, he can just detaunt and self punt. If a WP is dying he can only pray that his tank knows how to playl, or he is fked

Shamans dont have good mobility and cc? Id say maybe the best ingame after SH

[salazarn]

That's not what I said.

What I said was stacking defenses will leave your damage gimped. Obviously even DPS must have a minimum of defenses to avoid turning themselves into a liability.

And of course, the less competitive the setting, the more you can get away with.

For example, here's my Zealot, which is BiS

https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 627/armory

Here's how much mitigation I have vs a non-glass cannon Slayer while I have a White Lion Armor debuff on me.


Here's the same without Armor Talismans.




3000 armor is NOT a lot of mitigation against enemies who know what they are doing. Healers need to be able to have at least this level of tankiness to survive (which isn't much). If you are failing to kill a healer, you probably have a flaw in your comp, such as lack of armor debuff. I assumed that you're a solo player because most group players that I know don't complain about the tankiness of healers.

So he has 700 weaponskill. That honestly seems too high. I have like 450 in sov, like 2 talismans and full rr expenditure on my WH.
Also the 1600 armor pen skill is unique to WL/mara and talented. 1K flat pen is more common.
Finally don't zealots get an additional flat 1k armor from a trait?

Seems like your actually misprepresenting the situation somewhat.

Having said that flat armor pen debuffs particular the mara WL ones are too strong imo but ironically ONLY if you have low armor. You're at 4k with trait which must place u north of 60% mitigation which is ABSURD for a clothie in an rpg.

Meanwhile my WH has 1800 armor with 4 sov rest triumph and armor pot. That's perhaps 42% mitigation. A 1600 debuff and like 100 wpnskill takes me to zero armor, and 42% additional damage taken. Thus making the effect of these skills far higher on a WH than on a zealot which will not be taken to zero.