Engineers and Magus unbalance issue

[wonshot]

Uhmm.

Yeah to some degree I can see how having an Dodge check instead of a Distrupt check is slightly better, but atleast use the right reasoning why Electromagnet is better:

Engineer gets two mainstat Tactics to help them build strickthrough
Engineer also has piece defenses tactic to debuff targets 15% dodge,

the last one is only really an issue as long as Electromagnet and Rift have their 1sec delay after a succesful cast. Since that gives enough time to drop an additional aoe attack trying to roll a dodge on the targets you are attempting to pull, debuffing them with Pierce defenses tactic, and they have 15% less chance to dodge the Electromagnet.

I still imagine must Rifters can get softcapped rather easily though, and I dont know how many other Electromagnet engineers would run PD since that leans towards a psy damage warband.
The original point of Dodge being better than Distrupt I agree with, but it is so slight that I think magi are fine with the tradeoff of having more aoe to followup the rift, compared to doing psy damage.

[peterthepan3]

I would never trade Aegis for a keg, but to each their own. Aegis is 10000x better for surviving/ohshit moments in all environments other than solo.

Well these are solo classes we’re talking about not inherently the best in group situations. Why take a magus over a sorc that walks up to you and melts 6k of your hp on top of healdebuffs and very mobile high damage? A landmine for utility is not much competition. And that’s a reality, the fact a magus can only be played in a group is a big drawback, and it’s not even suited for it as others are.

Also they don’t compete in keep defence/attack and not by a long shot without constant attention from a healer, engis don’t have to worry, they can set up -anywhere-

And yeah maybe one oshit moment every 1 minute and then it’s back to not even risking popping your head out for 1 moment because a single dot will finish you, I’ve had keg heals crit burst heal me for 900hp, + crit tactics that modify its healcrit chance and damage crit chance (now with a 100ft range)

the pressure an engi can sustain because of this is just greater. And I’ve won SCs thanks solely to keg and some smart players that know the correct time to pull back for respite, or pounce. Without that they’d be toast. I’ve yet to see any magus even come close to competing with me lately except Ngnl, and even then he’s not always on the offensive like I am.

An engi can be independent of his group even when in a group and is able to branch out for quick 1v1 kills, eg a pugging sorc, SH or magus.

And pug does not = trash, it means they are not in a group, but when they play smart in the shadow of a solid group, they match up or even surpass that group’s primary dps. Being able to take out these players is an engis specialty

No, they are not a solo class. They excel in solo, but that doesn't mean they should be viewed as such. Magus and Engineer can both perform in Warbands, and can perform (if exceptionally played) within a 6-man environment against all but the very best premades (those premades have all left btw, so you can have a field day).

Get a healer and you'll rake in the kills just as fast as an Engineer would during a Keep defence. Firestorm is still incredibly potent, and there is a possibility it will have its CD removed/snare removed so it can be used more often.

You keep talking about pug environments and how good the Keg is in this environment. I don't disagree but that doesn't negate from the fact that Enginer burst is nowhere near that of a Magus, Engineer PBAOE is not as good as Magus.

Ironically, Keg starts to lose its value within a group environment, i.e. with healers/tanks, while Aegis value never really diminishes.

[Crumbs]

I would never trade Aegis for a keg, but to each their own. Aegis is 10000x better for surviving/ohshit moments in all environments other than solo.

Well these are solo classes we’re talking about not inherently the best in group situations. Why take a magus over a sorc that walks up to you and melts 6k of your hp on top of healdebuffs and very mobile high damage? A landmine for utility is not much competition. And that’s a reality, the fact a magus can only be played in a group is a big drawback, and it’s not even suited for it as others are.

Also they don’t compete in keep defence/attack and not by a long shot without constant attention from a healer, engis don’t have to worry, they can set up -anywhere-

And yeah maybe one oshit moment every 1 minute and then it’s back to not even risking popping your head out for 1 moment because a single dot will finish you, I’ve had keg heals crit burst heal me for 900hp, + crit tactics that modify its healcrit chance and damage crit chance (now with a 100ft range)

the pressure an engi can sustain because of this is just greater. And I’ve won SCs thanks solely to keg and some smart players that know the correct time to pull back for respite, or pounce. Without that they’d be toast. I’ve yet to see any magus even come close to competing with me lately except Ngnl, and even then he’s not always on the offensive like I am.

An engi can be independent of his group even when in a group and is able to branch out for quick 1v1 kills, eg a pugging sorc, SH or magus.

And pug does not = trash, it means they are not in a group, but when they play smart in the shadow of a solid group, they match up or even surpass that group’s primary dps. Being able to take out these players is an engis specialty

No, they are not a solo class. They excel in solo, but that doesn't mean they should be viewed as such. Magus and Engineer can both perform in Warbands, and can perform (if exceptionally played) within a 6-man environment against all but the very best premades (those premades have all left btw, so you can have a field day).

Get a healer and you'll rake in the kills just as fast as an Engineer would during a Keep defence. Firestorm is still incredibly potent, and there is a possibility it will have its CD removed/snare removed so it can be used more often.

You keep talking about pug environments and how good the Keg is in this environment. I don't disagree but that doesn't negate from the fact that Enginer burst is nowhere near that of a Magus, Engineer PBAOE is not as good as Magus.

Ironically, Keg starts to lose its value within a group environment, i.e. with healers/tanks, while Aegis value never really diminishes.

Well I’d argue the dps point further but I’m liking engi too much atm. Let’s keep it like that then, and hopefully you can keep your eyes from popping out when you look at some sort of data that proves the performance of these classes and where.

Yeah ideally aegis is better for the magus in a 6man, but 6mans with magus don’t exist. Not even a rift magus, they’ve been made obsolete by choppas. Been over a year since I’ve seen a real 6man running a havoc or change magus. Where’s your magus?

[RuffRyder]

Hi everyone,

first off when reading the OP it made sense, but if you elaborate further I don't see that much of a difference in being able to defend against the pull.
Why? Let's take a look into the target of a pull based on a tactical aspect.

When running Rift / Magnet the main purpose will be pulling apart either a frontline, or pulling people out of a funnel, to a spot where you can hit them better, or to make room for pushing to the backline.
So what classes will be the main target? Mostly tanks I'd assume, maybe some MDPS.

I'd further assume that these classes in focus have not a great gap between disrupting or dodging an attack, if any, because they either slot Deft Defender, or rather go for Initiative than for Willpower, so I don't see why it should be harder to counter Magnet.

Only class that has better defenses would be healers against Rift, following this logic and besides some situations where you aim to pull healers, it won't make any difference.

Apart from OP regarding the derailing discussion about Engi vs. Magus, most has been said already and while not maining a Magus for a long time, I still believe that both are somewhat on a similar level, so I'll keep my thoughts short:

- Keg: Helpful in ambush / defense situations or when running Sniper Squad because of several Kegs, but it neither is a panic button, nor will it help you survive when being focused. For that you got M1 Concealment for ranged, and KD/snare/disarm for melee, but it's not an Engineer's best task to get out of melee.

- Tracer Rounds' recent change: The change from 20 to 100ft favors foremost mobility and WB play, because slotting TR has mostly been a waste for an offensive Grenadier, while a Rifleman has been static near his turret anyway.

- Sniper Squad (since it's growing more popular lately, not always in a kindly manner): Build a group of Magi with a Zealot to heal and position accordingly and then tell me you're not having fun at keep sieges…

That said, the gap between both classes isn't that serious, both have their advantages and disadvantages (be it more range for Engi, less mitigation for Magus, yadayada) and from an Engi PoV at least, magical RDPS are my biggest threat, and vice versa I guess. I even have less fear of witches.

[Kragg]

I don't disagree but that doesn't negate from the fact that Enginer burst is nowhere near that of a Magus, Engineer PBAOE is not as good as Magus.

What are your thoughts on this with new sets coming out in the near future? Due to the higher armor value on each new set will make the damage on engineer drop down while classes that use different sorts of damage will not have that issue. Speaking from the viewpoint of the ST rifleman build in which our tool are pretty much all phsyical damage, ofcourse.

[peterthepan3]

I don't disagree but that doesn't negate from the fact that Enginer burst is nowhere near that of a Magus, Engineer PBAOE is not as good as Magus.

What are your thoughts on this with new sets coming out in the near future? Due to the higher armor value on each new set will make the damage on engineer drop down while classes that use different sorts of damage will not have that issue. Speaking from the viewpoint of the ST rifleman build in which our tool are pretty much all phsyical damage, ofcourse.

It was one of the reasons why we opted for that specific 13-pt Rifleman skill (25% armor ignore on all abilities) because we anticipate armor values being a real issue later on. In my opinion, some options we could explore are: a) some sort of innate strikethrough is given to PRDPS classes; b) some sort of strikethrough is granted via acquisition/use of a certain ability or tactic; c) armor values of new sets themselves are not made astronomically higher than predecessors; d) something something remove armor pots?

%armorignore/armorstrikethrough bonuses (tied to abilities/tactics) would help alleviate those concerns, and there would be no fears of them overperforming in lower gear environments because %armorignore/strikethrough gets progressively better when armor values are higher, e.g. 40% armor penetration is nowhere near as good vs a 2.5k armor target as it is against someone 4k+.

Just my thoughts, ofc.

[johny4finger]

Desto feel that order are op and let me just give a few things,

Order what to remove the Choppers pull, ok. Does that mean that the WL or SM is going to lose it's Pounce. When are the magus going to get flamers which can Shoot through walls like the engineer turrets. or have a spell like snipe which can Shoot through walls. Or how about the sorc's having spells which can hit through walls like the BW's can. Or let them bomb like the BW's, there is a lot more then that i could list.

[sioding]

Thanks for the necropost but - no thanks.