[SH] Discussing the new changes

[footpatrol2]

So one of the major reason's why stabby Sh was good, prior to all these changes, was because of wind up da waaaagh m4. You could tank up a stabby push it deep with a guard and you have a annoying time bomb. Given that the SH has it's own personal morale pump tactic plus you could add morale pumps from other group member's SH's could easily get to m4 once every minute, without even trying hard. It's one of the MAIN reason's why stabby can get tanky.

Being able to pop wind up da waaagh once a minute is/was gimmicky but effective on decisive fights. You only could blow up max once a minute. Bad gas gave you some type of utility between wind up da waaagh's. The AoE damage stabby provided was decent support AoE damage.

With Wind up da Waaagh being on a 5 min cooldown the spec or a major portion of it is crippled. Now stabby is just annoying with no bite.

If you didn't know... I was using stabby spec quit a bit prior to these changes. Wind up da Waaaagh was a major portion of some of the strategy we would use. Now that is taken away. These changes are not worth the cost of wind up da waaaagh being on a 5 min cooldown.

[lefze]

So one of the major reason's why stabby Sh was good, prior to all these changes, was because of wind up da waaaagh m4. You could tank up a stabby push it deep with a guard and you have a annoying time bomb. Given that the SH has it's own personal morale pump tactic plus you could add morale pumps from other group member's SH's could easily get to m4 once every minute, without even trying hard. It's one of the MAIN reason's why stabby can get tanky.

Being able to pop wind up da waaagh once a minute is/was gimmicky but effective on decisive fights. You only could blow up max once a minute. Bad gas gave you some type of utility between wind up da waaagh's. The AoE damage stabby provided was decent support AoE damage.

With Wind up da Waaagh being on a 5 min cooldown the spec or a major portion of it is crippled. Now stabby is just annoying with no bite.

If you didn't know... I was using stabby spec quit a bit prior to these changes. Wind up da Waaaagh was a major portion of some of the strategy we would use. Now that is taken away. These changes are not worth the cost of wind up da waaaagh being on a 5 min cooldown.

While I disagree with the tree being good prior to the changes, I do agree that the effective removal of the morale hurt more than it helped.

Still got lots of shootin though, and it's not like full stabby is really worth it for warband play. Big bouncing being core leaves indigestion and squig leap as the only abilities worth taking, which I would take and spend the rest of the points to get lots of shootin. Basically the same old STY playstyle but popping into squig armor every 20 seconds to apply indigestion and burst with really bad gas+big bouncing. Even tactic set would be the same old, as the rework didn't add anything worthwhile.

[footpatrol2]

I'm not sayin stabby didn't need some love but at the loss of wind up da waaagh these changes are not worth it.

Btw I'd be running some stabbies on the regular in my warbands. Not just a holiday.

I usually run guild spec specific group comps. 2 stabbies 2 Black orc's = 2400 stab m4 + 2400 stab m4 + 1200 bo m3 + 1200 bo m3 = 7200 instant 30ft m bomb with 5 sec silence + aoe snare + aoe disorient + bad gas effect + splash support AoE damage from big bouncin. It is DIRTY.

[Foomy44]

My main issue with the SH changes is that it has a high level of effective defense, especially against ranged dps; what I mean is the combination of Indigestion, Sneaky Git, and Camouflage. Right now, the SH can pounce into an opposing back-line and wreak havoc with impunity, as he will have a natural, high dodge/disrupt rate thanks to Deft Defender & Sneaky Git, throw out a cd increaser to greatly lessen the amount of burst he (and his allies) receives, and can get to M1 in either 1 Git 'em! (with a Shaman morale pump) or ~7 seconds with Strength In Numbas, and when he does pop M1, he has 7 seconds of complete control over the backline. And if the SH does have to flee from backline, he has 5 options for doing so (RUN AWAY!!, Squig Leap, Outta My Way!, KABOOM!, and Sticky Squiz).

Right now, the SH has everything; good burst, unbelievable mobility, great survivabilty, and great utility. He needs to loose one of the four and lessen another one slightly; preferably, removing/changing Sneaky Git (making it a Parry tactic would be better), and moving the cooldown increaser to another tree, forcing them to go after it specifically. That still leaves the M1 issue though, but I need some more experience fighting that to see if there is adequate ways for Order to counter it.

WL has pretty nice defense against RDPS too, in that they are dead before they can stand up from the knockdown. I am full tank SH and I get locked down and killed pouncing into backlines all the time even with M1 on. It's fun and very effective when it works but I am far from invincible.

With Sneaky Git tactic proc, full Deft Defender/Reflexes, and tanky setup (6 piece dom, defensive SC weapons) none of my avoidance stats goes above 50%, and that's assuming Sneaky Git doesn't get parried or I don't get locked down before I get it off, I honestly find myself using that tactic less than I thought I would (the attack has a 10sec CD so 1 miss and you have basically wasted a tactic slot for any short fight).

I really don't see the CD increaser greatly reducing the burst of a crowd you just pounced into that is focused on you, many classes have a rotation they work through as an opener, they don't start by spamming 1 attack over and over so 5sec CD debuff is not gonna save you from most of their initial burst, plus the attack is a cone shape so you aren't hitting everything and most SH's are aiming it at the enemy healers I believe, not their tanks and dps. It's an amazing ability for sure I just never considered it a big tool in surviving pouncing into back lines, maybe I'm wrong.

Do you have a SH? I keep seeing order claiming SHs are able to roll this super spec that is tanky enough to survive pouncing into WBs backlines and shrug everything off while having enough dps to run around bursting RDPS into the floor before they can react. Pretty sure you guys are mixing your SHs up and getting confused. I can't burst down anything in my tank setup, every fight takes time. I have a similar geared guardian WL and the difference in burst is immense. In my experience if you spec for good burst you are definitely sacrificing a few things from the other 3 categories you mentioned. If any SHs out there are rolling this super spec please enlighten me as to your build and setup.

And just FTR even in my build with +6k armor and Sneaky Git proc'd, a good guardian WL kills me in about the time it takes me to kill his pet.

[Tesq]

the problem of squig in term of lack of melee dmg could be solve by make his dmg more worth with a outgoing heal debuff like wl have which is like that becuase is set as an aggressive backliners stalkers.

that way pounce combo would get more effective tough average dps would not.

[live4treasure]

Something worth mentioning that happened in rvr/sc the other day is a SH pouncing onto our healer when he was in a bad position. He wasn't able to kill the healer alone, but what he did do was actually make us lose by using his charge ability to chain knockback her over and over and interrupt all the heals. That was kind of annoying, because not even a tank could lock down a healers actions as much as a melee SH apparently. Just throwing it out there.

P.S. Also no, it's actually true. Most of the SH I've seen so far had very potent damage and extremely high survivability. It's because they are capable of stacking their defense rates very high and stack enough armor that ranged physical dps or melee dps can't do anything to them when they're guarded, especially with the self heal. And even when they're not, they have plenty of escape mechanisms, like self punting away, or pouncing back onto the melee line etc. etc. that their innate tankiness and self-healing can basically get them through any trouble. You shouldn't forget their morale ability that grants 100% disrupt rate as well, as that actually is no small contributor to their ability to avoid being punished for pouncing into backline. They do in fact feel much more tanky than say a choppa or a marauder would be, while still having very potent damage. I recall someone said earlier in the thread that I might be mixing up my squig herders, but another day of rvr and SC seems to suggest nothing new for me, they're still very tanky and have very potent damage against backline squishy targets, where their lack of armor debuff doesn't matter that much. (it doesn't matter much in 6v6 as well, because other classes can simply provide it for them) Though my perspective is that of a magic dps, so perhaps they're tankiness is a bit higher versus casters.

[Foomy44]

Spoiler:

Something worth mentioning that happened in rvr/sc the other day is a SH pouncing onto our healer when he was in a bad position. He wasn't able to kill the healer alone, but what he did do was actually make us lose by using his charge ability to chain knockback her over and over and interrupt all the heals. That was kind of annoying, because not even a tank could lock down a healers actions as much as a melee SH apparently. Just throwing it out there.

P.S. Also no, it's actually true. Most of the SH I've seen so far had very potent damage and extremely high survivability. It's because they are capable of stacking their defense rates very high and stack enough armor that ranged physical dps or melee dps can't do anything to them when they're guarded, especially with the self heal. And even when they're not, they have plenty of escape mechanisms, like self punting away, or pouncing back onto the melee line etc. etc. that their innate tankiness and self-healing can basically get them through any trouble. You shouldn't forget their morale ability that grants 100% disrupt rate as well, as that actually is no small contributor to their ability to avoid being punished for pouncing into backline. They do in fact feel much more tanky than say a choppa or a marauder would be, while still having very potent damage. I recall someone said earlier in the thread that I might be mixing up my squig herders, but another day of rvr and SC seems to suggest nothing new for me, they're still very tanky and have very potent damage against backline squishy targets, where their lack of armor debuff doesn't matter that much. (it doesn't matter much in 6v6 as well, because other classes can simply provide it for them) Though my perspective is that of a magic dps, so perhaps they're tankiness is a bit higher versus casters.

Any interrupt would have stopped that SH in his track (which all tanks have access to in taunt btw), and that ability has a 55 second CD so not like he's chaining it. It's also a channel that requires AP so ap drains work.

You are arguing that if a SH gets guard he is hard to kill. Ok, not gonna argue against that, but it applies to every dps class in the game, I've run into plenty of seemingly unkillable slayers with the right support. Any SH that is staying in guard range is not pouncing backlines wrecking havoc on his own, he's near his tank and likely the melee train where it should be no surprise your casters aren't going to have a good time if they stand nearby. Their innate self healing is on another large CD ability that can also get interrupted, unlike guardian WL which gets a tactic for nice regen that requires 0 GCDs or AP during a fight and can't get locked down with good play. I'm curious how high you are managing to get your defense rates on your own squig herder since I am unable to get any of mine above 50% with Sneaky Git up and proc'd and it really does not seem exceptionally high for a BiS geared defensive spec'd toon with maxed defensive renown masteries and a blockable tactic proc active. If I miss Sneaky Git after diving into backlines and the enemy gets off Pierce Defenses (which should happen in any decent WBs backline extremely fast, especially since my defense is apparently so high I will immediately dodge their first attack) then I am looking at 11.6% parry, 15.1% dodge which doesn't really strike me as an impenetrable amount of defense.

FYI with the way their armor buff works, unless I'm mistaken they take 2x the value of any armor debuff against them (debuff hits base value which then does not get doubled from horned squig), so 1 good armor debuff and you have just severely lowered their durability. There is no amount of armor I can stack where a WL debuff (which is undefendable unlike my armor buff attack) doesn't lower my armor under effective cap far as I know, and I'm in almost full armor talis atm. Even if there is that is one hell of an investment and I encourage you to try it out and let us know how strong your burst is.

[dansari]

Right now, the SH has everything; good burst, unbelievable mobility, great survivabilty, and great utility.

This is my main gripe about SHs in general. On paper they have a ton of tools they get for free or very cheap, so you can swap at will depending on situation without needing a respec. Need to play defensive? Slot auto detaunt (which procs off of everything, including dot ticks, and stacks multiplicatively with the single target detaunt). Need to play kite? Slot Run Away. Need to morale pump yourself for aoe slow m2? Slot Strength in Numbas. Plus they get an on demand move speed buff in the same line as the heal debuff, plus Kaboom at core (which is better than both SM and BO aoe knockbacks). I'm not saying it's *easy* but it's likely the most versatile class in game and it does very many things better than other classes rather than just being mediocre in all of those variables. Take for example, guardian WL vs stab SH: WL brings less utility, control, and mobility and only beats stab SH in burst on single targets (Utility - horned squig blessing shear, ranged block % reduction + armor debuff, self morale pump, Pierce Defenses, incoming heal debuff, 40ft cone cooldown increaser, 65ft ST init debuff, vs ST armor debuff, arguably worst self morale pump in game, outgoing heal debuff higher in the tree // Control - Kaboom, Outta My Way, aoe m2 slow, melee snare, 65ft ranged snare, melee interrupt, 2s kd, 3s disarm, 4s ranged silence vs interrupt, 2s kd, 4s melee silence, melee snare, m1 ST root // Mobility - self punt, on demand move speed, move speed tactic, squig leap, and Outta My Way vs pounce, Charge, Speed Training. Stab SH is still miles ahead of Guardian WL in warband setups, despite losing its gimmicky m4 to a 5min cooldown. Take another example in ASW vs Stab SH: again, ASW brings less utility, control, and mobility than stab SH, and is only slightly better than guardian WL in warband play because of nerfed double init debuff and outgoing heal debuff.

I'm not sayin stabby didn't need some love but at the loss of wind up da waaagh these changes are not worth it.

Btw I'd be running some stabbies on the regular in my warbands. Not just a holiday.

I usually run guild spec specific group comps. 2 stabbies 2 Black orc's = 2400 stab m4 + 2400 stab m4 + 1200 bo m3 + 1200 bo m3 = 7200 instant 30ft m bomb with 5 sec silence + aoe snare + aoe disorient + bad gas effect + splash support AoE damage from big bouncin. It is DIRTY.

I haven't seen your band run Wind up da Waaagh for a long time.

Yet still not as OP as a WL......

Spoiler:

[charlysixb]

Squig Herders dont have outgoing heal debuff plus all the things you saying aint possible with one single spec.

PD: Tesq can i've name of your squig please?

Take away Horned Squig and the Squig Herder will lose armor buff for 30 seconds and in that time can happen many things.
Once you go out of SA you need 10 seconds to get back ( unlike another class we know wich stance buffs aint linked to pets ).

[live4treasure]

Spoiler:

Any interrupt would have stopped that SH in his track (which all tanks have access to in taunt btw), and that ability has a 55 second CD so not like he's chaining it. It's also a channel that requires AP so ap drains work.

You are arguing that if a SH gets guard he is hard to kill. Ok, not gonna argue against that, but it applies to every dps class in the game, I've run into plenty of seemingly unkillable slayers with the right support. Any SH that is staying in guard range is not pouncing backlines wrecking havoc on his own, he's near his tank and likely the melee train where it should be no surprise your casters aren't going to have a good time if they stand nearby. Their innate self healing is on another large CD ability that can also get interrupted, unlike guardian WL which gets a tactic for nice regen that requires 0 GCDs or AP during a fight and can't get locked down with good play. I'm curious how high you are managing to get your defense rates on your own squig herder since I am unable to get any of mine above 50% with Sneaky Git up and proc'd and it really does not seem exceptionally high for a BiS geared defensive spec'd toon with maxed defensive renown masteries and a blockable tactic proc active. If I miss Sneaky Git after diving into backlines and the enemy gets off Pierce Defenses (which should happen in any decent WBs backline extremely fast, especially since my defense is apparently so high I will immediately dodge their first attack) then I am looking at 11.6% parry, 15.1% dodge which doesn't really strike me as an impenetrable amount of defense.

FYI with the way their armor buff works, unless I'm mistaken they take 2x the value of any armor debuff against them (debuff hits base value which then does not get doubled from horned squig), so 1 good armor debuff and you have just severely lowered their durability. There is no amount of armor I can stack where a WL debuff (which is undefendable unlike my armor buff attack) doesn't lower my armor under effective cap far as I know, and I'm in almost full armor talis atm. Even if there is that is one hell of an investment and I encourage you to try it out and let us know how strong your burst is.

Alright, so there's a couple of problems with the way you're arguing things with me here, Foomy.

First of all, you're using a hypothetical situation where the tank is 100% of the time in a position to interrupt anything anyone does, and is also capable of perfectly noticing it in the commotion of a fight. In an ideal world, yes. However, the truth is that it's not as easy to do, when the squig herder jumped into your backlines. It requires the tank to move back from the frontline and taunt, which could actually cause it to collapse. This means that the backline has to deal with that squig herder alone and cc him and burst him down. That's also, in fact, not easy to do because I do actually see a lot of disrupts from the squig herder despite sporting a totaly disrupt strike through of 27% before intellect (908) is included into the equation. Despite that, they disrupt very regularly and I imagine a bright wizard, shadow warrior and engineer would have even more trouble getting anything to stick onto the squig herder.

Secondly, you're using a really specific tactic to argue your point of being squishy. So there's Pierce Defenses, a tactic, that has a proc chance on one class, that is unpopular in WB play due to lacking aoe damage. I'm going to use WB play here, because you seem to focus most of your entire post on it.

Thirdly, I don't think it would have been worth mentioning the SH's survivability if my argument was "he's hard to kill under guard". That's not the point. Everyone is hard to kill under guard, as you've stated. The point is that the SH is HARDER to kill under guard than most other mdps, however when they pounce into the backline in a warband scenario, they usually aren't guarded and can still often get away alive. What's more, lets go back to the pouncing backline scenario for a second here, if any other MDPS decided to do that in a warband scenario they would get instantly and mercilessly melted, even if we provide them with a hypothetical scenario where they teleport right into it in order to simulate pounce, which is and has not been the case for squig herder so far. You may say whatever you like in theory, however in practice, they are actually very very tanky in comparison to other mdps. I'm not sure what you're playing exactly and how strong of an investment your armor talismans really are or what your RR is, but the squig herders I've fought against (in a small scale 6v6 scenario, it should be noted) have been capable of taking about 70% of my hp in the span of their knockdown duration and were also far more difficult to take down than any marauder or choppa would have been, considering that they are essentially overextended and without a guard as a result, and this was a consistent thing across most of the melee squig herders I've ran into. That's all I can say and that's all I will say, because that's all the information I have available to me and that is also exactly the information I have presented. If you're also interested in my stats, I can say that I have about a negative 5% chance to recieve a crit, 200 toughness, 2k armor and 6.1k hp, and the fact that I have hots from Lambent Aura (270 hp every 2 seconds) and the lifetap dot usually ticking on me (variable healing, but usually doesn't go below 200) shouldn't be ignored, of course.

It's also worth mentioning the difference in our tones. I get that you like your squig herder, but I'm simply reporting my experiences playing against it. I'm not setting out to nerf it on purpose, I'm merely relaying information, which the devs can then choose to use or ignore in any way they see fit. So, if your goal is to defend your favorite class's current power level, that's fine, but I'm simply not the person you will want to do it with, because your are in essence attempting to dispute what I have experienced. I've taken your previous words into account that I may be mistaking various squig herder builds, and even after that, the result is the same. Tanky even without a guard, takes well over half of my hp over the knockdown duration and that's all I can say for basically the majority of squig herders. You can continue to argue with this, but at this point it'll be either a dishonest argument with an attempt to discredit my point of view by saying that I have no right to speak about my experiences with this class because I don't play for it, which I hope you won't do, because the perspective of someone going up against a class shouldn't be any less valuable than someone that plays it, or you simply will continue to misinterprit my experiences for made up hypothetical situations and argue against them in that fashion. Either way, I'm not accusing you of having done any of these things, I'm simply saying that this conversation is not going to get us anywhere.