SW 180 Init debuff

[Q73px]

His math is a bit wonky, but still accurate enough to get the point across.

Wonky? Totally not.

=IF(((40*7,5+50)/10)/Ini Value>1;1;((40*7,5+50)/10/Ini value))

go to excel and calculate it yourself if you think it's wonky.

[peterthepan3]

I'm unsure as to whether a large amount of posters have actually used/been on the receiving end of a competent group using this in 6v6.

The issue is that the tactic itself is already trifold in its buffs (WS, INI, and parry - that's huge for one tactic); one tactic mandates that the enemy entirely spec to deal with it. There is nothing inherently skillbased/risk reward for using said tactic; it's an incredible too in the right hands (I cite Kajtarn, best melee SW). Initially, I was for giving it to destro so both realms have access to it, but the ability itself is just incredibly powerful for minimal effort (melee SW is one of the tankiest melee DPS if played right). SW already has access to Leading Shots, and Bullseye (if he wishes to increase his own crit, at the expense of being more susceptible to be crit - a la risk/reward.

Another issue/complaint is - why is this particular debuff stacking in the first place? I know it's tactic based, but why is the same not true of many other tactic-based debuffs/buffs (there's LOADS). I get that war code is messy by default, but it doesn't help if we want to standardise things, I guess.

Even if the ini debuff stacking were to be removed, the class itself would still be in a very good position due to the changes that preceded said stacking.

note: I'm not calling for the melee SW to be nerfed into oblivion, I just believe that the tactic is slightly overperforming. We can discuss this like adults, I am sure, without the need to resort to bashing one another.

Strongly welcome any thoughts from Kajtarn on this topic.

[Darosh]

His math is a bit wonky, but still accurate enough to get the point across.

Wonky? Totally not.

=IF(((40*7,5+50)/10)/Ini Value>1;1;((40*7,5+50)/10/Ini value))

go to excel and calculate it yourself if you think it's wonky.

Wonky in the way you broke it down, providing a function is generally more useful.
The way I was wording that was off, my apologies.

[Aurandilaz]

Tactic based debuffs are in the minority compared to the vast numbers of ability based debuffs, especially those that directly debuff the generic stats (healdebuffs are probably more numerous than stat decrease debuffs via tactics)
Which is why they are so sought after, due to them "generally" stacking with ability based debuffs.
Then there exist rare cases of moral based debuffs, their problem is that currently "nerfed to oblivion" moral gains don't allow much play with them due to limited uptime and difficulties of getting enough moral before fight ends.

[Q73px]

Tactic based debuffs are in the minority compared to the vast numbers of ability based debuffs, especially those that directly debuff the generic stats (healdebuffs are probably more numerous than stat decrease debuffs via tactics)
Which is why they are so sought after, due to them "generally" stacking with ability based debuffs.

They "generally" stack after the latest changes. Yet the stacking got nerfed on live, so that only the highest debuff of any source would count, no matter if it's morale, tactic, gear/weapon proc or ability related. I might bother to search the patchnotes if you actually want me to proof it!

[dansari]

I'm unsure as to whether a large amount of posters have actually used/been on the receiving end of a competent group using this in 6v6.

It's incredibly strong in small scale (<12).. kinda meh in rvr (as are most ST specs).

Is the issue that there is no counterplay, that there is no destro mirror, or that the tactic is overperforming?

[Darosh]

I'm unsure as to whether a large amount of posters have actually used/been on the receiving end of a competent group using this in 6v6.

It's incredibly strong in small scale (<12).. kinda meh in rvr (as are most ST specs).

Is the issue that there is no counterplay, that there is no destro mirror, or that the tactic is overperforming?

Boost to everyones crit > uptime > values > else, imo.

Abbd.:
Imagine: One SW, 2 WLs, 1 or 2 healer, 1 or 2 tanks - permacritting pets, tanky WLs. yumyum.
The double debuff basically allows everyone to run superdeftard, but the SW.
If it was a ST crit buff for the SW or an ally, it'd be more reasonable, imo.

[Bozzax]

Nope 100% to crit (outgoing) is broken as well and will proc on crit on every hit. (Think aa stacking + dw)

Removing a few % to crit (outgoing) here and there on gear to get plus crit damage tactics to behave while giving out 50-100% (incoming) to be crit via ini simply dont add up

X2 inidebuff needs to go or base to be crit (incoming) needs to be hard capped

[Aurandilaz]

Is the issue that there is no counterplay, that there is no destro mirror, or that the tactic is overperforming?

imagine SH or Mara having a ST debuff that causes target to have 30-100% (very much dependant on victims initial rate) increased chance to be critically hit, some would probably call it OP, but apparently according to some it is an acceptable state of balance.

They "generally" stack after the latest changes. Yet the stacking got nerfed on live, so that only the highest debuff of any source would count, no matter if it's morale, tactic, gear/weapon proc or ability related. I might bother to search the patchnotes if you actually want me to proof it!

It's getting so confusing that most people just don't bother keeping track over what stacks with what and what doesn't... Remains to be seen how devs change stacking in future, because currently it allows some weird niches to rise to meta whereas some specs would otherwise be forgotten and gathering dust.

[dansari]

Is the issue that there is no counterplay, that there is no destro mirror, or that the tactic is overperforming?

imagine SH or Mara having a ST debuff that causes target to have 30-100% (very much dependant on victims initial rate) increased chance to be critically hit, some would probably call it OP, but apparently according to some it is an acceptable state of balance.

Well yeah, we know there is no mirror. But is that the main issue?