SW 180 Init debuff

[Q73px]

The only thing I can see here is people who don’t want to invest in defensive stats like initiative itself or futile strikes which easy get your chance to be critically hit to 0%. Glass cannon builds ftw.
The only unbalanced thing is that SH doesn’t have such special and useful thing (finally such thing has appeared and at least one class is worth for group play).

The only thing I can see here, is a biased SW main.

A level 40 choppa (a class with an already high base initiative) got 196,5 initiative. Assuming he uses BiS gear which is full conq, he gets 0 initiative from set. 3 beastlord dont give any initiative either. so you are left with 2 weapons, which (surprise, surprise) dont give any ini and 3 jewels. 2 slots are usually filled with the 24str/24w and 24ini/36mp genesis item. 1 slot left in which you could use the 20/16/16ini jewel.

So from your combined BiS gear you'll gain 40 ini. Assuming you have a zealot in group, you'll receive a buff of 50, that's 90.

286 ini = 12,22% chance to be crit
-180 (sw alone) = 32,86% chance to be crit
or
- 200 (sw+sm) = 40,46% chance to be crit

assuming the tank knows how to shatter and the zealot buff is gone too

-230 (sw alone) = 61,95%
-250 (sw+sm) = 95,89%

you then have to add the attackers chance to crit and the % debuffs stacking (EA, WH bullets etc.)

If you think that's balanced, i really dont know what to say.

About your renown point argument:
So you are basically saying the paperdoll choppa would have to invest 34 renown points for 120 initiative or 45 for -24% chance to be crit which will do exactly nothing if the attackers chance to crit will be 120+%, while the SW only has to slot one tactic?

Oh, or do you actually want him to swap his BiS gear while the SW can maintain his? I'd call this an imbalance.

It's not only that but also the fact that Wrist Slash grants 4 buffs/debuffs (lower the chance to be crit, higher the chane to crit, higher/lower ws (damage), higher/lower parry (defense)) for the sole investment of 1 tactic slot. That's literally overkill considering how much love he received anyway with the "rework"!

Dirty Tricks was notorious for its ease of use but a spamable anytimer granting 4 buffs/debuffs is fine. That simply doesn't seem right. Not to mention other potential tactics which got broken by the latest rework of stacking behavior.

Spoiler:

I'd recommend to simply remove the ini debuff from the wrist slash tactic, as it was removed from the choppas mirror tactic as well. If the melee SW would want crit over WS he could still slot Bullseye and grant 20% additional crit with an actual drawback.

oh and let's not forget about that fact that a melee SW can spec crit 2 times via renown.
melee and range, which gets converted into melee as well!

[Druin]

The only thing I can see here is people who don’t want to invest in defensive stats like initiative itself or futile strikes which easily get your chance to be critically hit to 0%. Glass cannon builds ftw.
The only unbalanced thing is that SH doesn’t have such special and useful thing (finally such thing has appeared and at least one class is worth for group play).

Easier said then done with the way initiative works.
Not to mention that it doesn‘t make sense that everyone should have to overinvest in smth because of one ability.

[Bozzax]

If you rephrase it like this it gets easier to understand why stacking inidebuffs are bad

Q: should we grant class X debuffs that increase incoming damage by 50-100% or in some cases up to 300% plus on crit procs on more or less on all incoming hits?

A: ...,

[daniilpb]

The only thing I can see here is people who don’t want to invest in defensive stats like initiative itself or futile strikes which easy get your chance to be critically hit to 0%. Glass cannon builds ftw.
The only unbalanced thing is that SH doesn’t have such special and useful thing (finally such thing has appeared and at least one class is worth for group play).

The only thing I can see here, is a biased SW main.

A level 40 choppa (a class with an already high base initiative) got 196,5 initiative. Assuming he uses BiS gear which is full conq, he gets 0 initiative from set. 3 beastlord dont give any initiative either. so you are left with 2 weapons, which (surprise, surprise) dont give any ini and 3 jewels. 2 slots are usually filled with the 24str/24w and 24ini/36mp genesis item. 1 slot left in which you could use the 20/16/16ini jewel.

So from your combined BiS gear you'll gain 40 ini. Assuming you have a zealot in group, you'll receive a buff of 50, that's 90.

286 ini = 12,22% chance to be crit
-180 (sw alone) = 32,86% chance to be crit
or
- 200 (sw+sm) = 40,46% chance to be crit

assuming the tank knows how to shatter and the zealot buff is gone too

-230 (sw alone) = 61,95
-250 (sw+sm) = 95,89%

you then have to add the attackers chance to crit and the % debuffs stacking (EA, WH bullets etc.)

If you think that's balanced, i really dont know what to say.

About your renown point argument:
So you are basically saying the paperdoll choppa would have to invest 34 renown points for 120 initiative or 45 for -24% chance to be crit which will do exactly nothing if the attackers chance to crit will be 150+%.

Oh, or do you actually want him to swap his BiS gear while the SW can maintain his? I'd call this an imbalance.

It's not only that but also the fact that Wrist Slash grants 4 buffs/debuffs (lower the chance to be crit, higher the chane to crit, higher/lower ws, higher/lower parry) for the sole investment of 1 tactic slot. That's literally overkill considering how much love he received anyway with the "rework"!

Dirty Tricks was notorious for its ease of use but a spamable anytimer granting 4 buffs/debuffs is fine. That simply doesn't seem right. Not to mention other potential tactics which got broken by the latest rework of stacking behavior.

Mostly invalid for me.
On my SW I am able to get -10% crit chance with only futile strikes and half bis gear - it’s 0% chance to be crit hit and -10% more just for safety.
So SW’s +20% crit chance increaser is laughable for me.
And choppa is supposed to have high chance to be crit hit so deal with it or think about ACTUAL game already, get yourself a BG with -45% (Forse of fury) + 20% (Crush the weak) crit chance decreasers and BO.
It’s a team game finally.

[rmpl]

Can choppas have their stacking Ini debuff tactic back aswell?

For those who don't remember.
Was dat yer finger also used to drain Initiative.

Choppas could actually use something like that since they're just inferior slayers atm

[roadkillrobin]

Futile Strikes does almoast nothing against such high Initiative debuffs. You need to stack initiative to deal with it.

It would actually be more ballanced to give SW 100% to crit when proced then 180 debuff as then it would just be affecting SW. Now it gives it to everyone assisting aswell.

[Fallenkezef]

Class A v Class B arguments do not work. Balance is a general thing across most classes and using a Choppa in ANY balance discussion is a bit daft.

Choppa's are universaly recognised as being in most need of balancing work.

[Q73px]

Mostly invalid for me.
On my SW I am able to get -10% crit chance with only futile strikes and half bis gear - it’s 0% chance to be crit hit and -10% more just for safety.

first off, only FS counts below 0%. second i guess you still don't understand how initiative is calculated. the paperdoll choppa has 12,22% chance to be crit with his 286 initiative. add -24% from FS and he'll be just like your SW at -12% chance to be crit. Now it gets fancy when you add the ini debuffs and the tanks who shatter bc you will end up with a chance to be crit of 71,89%, so how good are your "-10%" now? basic math, you can recalculate if you bother. And please don't forget to add the attackers chance to crit:
71,89% + 14% renown + 8% gear + 4% weapon + 10% EA = 107,89% chance to be crit even with an investment of 45 renown points (FS).

it looks awesome ikr? that's exactly how it works

And choppa is supposed to have high chance to be crit hit so deal with it or think about ACTUAL game already

you kinda lack game knowledge, dont you? choppa has higher BASE initiative than your SW, that's why i used him as an example... Your logic doesnt fit the actual game design!

get yourself a BG with -45% (Forse of fury) + 20% (Crush the weak) crit chance decreasers and BO.
It’s a team game finally.

Again, your logic would force the destru premade to have defensive (gimped) tanks, while order rick rolls with an off SM and off Kotbs? Order is able to keep any offensive capability while destru has to respec the tanks, invest heavy renown points and swap gear to counter 1(!) tactic? that's hilarious

[Darosh]

Spoiler:

The only thing I can see here is people who don’t want to invest in defensive stats like initiative itself or futile strikes which easy get your chance to be critically hit to 0%. Glass cannon builds ftw.
The only unbalanced thing is that SH doesn’t have such special and useful thing (finally such thing has appeared and at least one class is worth for group play).

The only thing I can see here, is a biased SW main.

A level 40 choppa (a class with an already high base initiative) got 196,5 initiative. Assuming he uses BiS gear which is full conq, he gets 0 initiative from set. 3 beastlord dont give any initiative either. so you are left with 2 weapons, which (surprise, surprise) dont give any ini and 3 jewels. 2 slots are usually filled with the 24str/24w and 24ini/36mp genesis item. 1 slot left in which you could use the 20/16/16ini jewel.

So from your combined BiS gear you'll gain 40 ini. Assuming you have a zealot in group, you'll receive a buff of 50, that's 90.

286 ini = 12,22% chance to be crit
-180 (sw alone) = 32,86% chance to be crit
or
- 200 (sw+sm) = 40,46% chance to be crit

assuming the tank knows how to shatter and the zealot buff is gone too

-230 (sw alone) = 61,95
-250 (sw+sm) = 95,89%

you then have to add the attackers chance to crit and the % debuffs stacking (EA, WH bullets etc.)

If you think that's balanced, i really dont know what to say.

About your renown point argument:
So you are basically saying the paperdoll choppa would have to invest 34 renown points for 120 initiative or 45 for -24% chance to be crit which will do exactly nothing if the attackers chance to crit will be 150+%.

Oh, or do you actually want him to swap his BiS gear while the SW can maintain his? I'd call this an imbalance.

It's not only that but also the fact that Wrist Slash grants 4 buffs/debuffs (lower the chance to be crit, higher the chane to crit, higher/lower ws, higher/lower parry) for the sole investment of 1 tactic slot. That's literally overkill considering how much love he received anyway with the "rework"!

Dirty Tricks was notorious for its ease of use but a spamable anytimer granting 4 buffs/debuffs is fine. That simply doesn't seem right. Not to mention other potential tactics which got broken by the latest rework of stacking behavior.

Mostly invalid for me.
On my SW I am able to get -10% crit chance with only futile strikes and half bis gear - it’s 0% chance to be crit hit and -10% more just for safety.
So SW’s +20% crit chance increaser is laughable for me.
And choppa is supposed to have high chance to be crit hit so deal with it or think about ACTUAL game already, get yourself a BG with -45% (Forse of fury) + 20% (Crush the weak) crit chance decreasers and BO.
It’s a team game finally.

You didn't really read what the guy you quoted wrote, did you? His math is a bit wonky, but still accurate enough to get the point across.

Sidenote, Force of Fury is multiplicative and effectively useless if you stroll around with +100% ctbc postdebuff. Your -ctbc stack is fancy and all, but only works because you do not face said 180er init debuff - I guess you refer to Bullseye with the +20% crit? Yeah, you see that very crit is pretty much irrelevant.

Abbd.:
Also, keep in mind, ST crit debuffs need application, maintenance and come with a minor CD - they do quite literally nothing if an unlimited amount of attackers get to enjoy an average effective crit of 50% once you are debuffed.

[Valfaros]

The only thing I can see here is people who don’t want to invest in defensive stats like initiative itself or futile strikes which easily get your chance to be critically hit to 0%. Glass cannon builds ftw.
The only unbalanced thing is that SH doesn’t have such special and useful thing (finally such thing has appeared and at least one class is worth for group play).

Well the problem here is the different base stats. While 120 more or less toughness is fairly meaningless being the lowest base init class makes it fairly impossible to get to a okayisch init value with reasonable effort.

There is a reason why no other class has a init debuffing tactic because it's broken with how init works. I'm fairly certain that Wrist Slash is just something the original devs overlooked and nearly anybody noticed since the build was so lackluster in the first place.