[WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

[th3gatekeeper]

I feel the pet is too tough except for a full guardian build, I think mara trees need to be rejigged to cause investment in character as opposed to getting everything available as low hanging fruit.

Ok, so sticking with this theme... Lets see if this is practical enough of a change...


MARA CHANGE:
Cutting Claw should be 13 points (swapped with Draining Swipe). Then...
Growing Instability moved to T3 (swapped with Unstable Convulsions)...

WHITE LION CHANGE:
Trained to Hunt (Hunter): Changed to giving 100% Toughness and 100% Strength (from 50% of each).
Trained to Threaten (Axman): Changed to giving 100% Wounds and 100% Weaponskill (from wounds/toughness).
Trained to Kill (Guardian): Changed to giving 50% of EACH Wounds/toughness/Strength/Weaponskill.

This splits up the defensive + offensive stats, with the 1 exception being Guardian - getting 50% for all.

*Also if possible, adding a max "range" on these so that the WL and his pet lose these benefits after say... around 30 -50 feet.


I am a big fan of MINOR changes and I think these are minor enough.... it accomplishes both the goals.
- makes Mara spend more to get more stuff, also restricts builds for anything under RR 70 so that it CANT get it all...
- spreads about WL's Pet's "defensive stats" on buffs + puts a range of said buffs so splitting up from WL means a more killable pet... So its a higher risk to send it out to "fetch" at max range...

What do you think Torq?

[freshour]

@TenTonHammer

I have asked 4-5 WL's during SC's that seem to be fully geared out/have a clue what they are doing and they and others stated that if a WL had his armor debuff removed they would be, and I'm quoting here

"Irrelevant in the 6 man party scene"
"A useless class"
"It would destroy the entire class"

- While I think there may be some over dramatization there. That of all the changes proposed right now, in an armor meta would probably yield the most rage.

Oh

i just figured if you removed the armor debuff from WL then other classes with armor debuff like IB could step in and shine and making WL have more spirit damage based attacks as compensation would allow the class to synergize better with SM

Yeah I mean that is what I said/thought too lol. So im glad our logic is on the same playing field in regards to that change. Personally I think IB's are freaking sweet, but usually see a knight and SM when I run into a pre, or 2 knights.

[spacegoat]

White Lion and Marauder are currently the standard to which other MDPS should be elevated. They are the only MDPS classes which have a viable role on the battlefield in ORvR situations (which, whether you like it or not, are mostly pug situations). Currently, even a player of average skill can perform a useful ORvR role in ANY tank or healing class, and yet nobody is clamoring for a nerf to Guard or general reduction to the potency of healing (which is almost comically powerful, in several cases). In contrast, MDPS players are largely just liabilities in any situation outside of a few select scenarios or organized 6v6 encounters (the only time I ever register a Slayer as a threat is when I know he is on coms with his pocket tank). Marauder/WL are the sole exceptions, and even in this case, it's difficult for me to identify any situation in which the mere presence of either becomes a determining factor in the outcome of any ORvR skirmish. Again, this is in contrast to ANY healer or tank played by a person with some degree of situational awareness and coordination.

Please consider adjustments to underperforming MDPS classes before nerfing the few which don't suck.

(to be totally transparent: sure, I play Marauder. But I also play other classes, and frequently get eaten alive by WLs. This, as far as I'm concerned, is the way it should be. A WL should be a significant threat in precisely the same way that a BW is. For the same reason, I shouldn't be allowed to virtually ignore a Slayer, or see a WH which has emerged from stealth as nothing more than a free kill.)

[pot]

Take away run speed proc and goblins charge only melee classes should have charge also

[TenTonHammer]

White Lion and Marauder are currently the standard to which other MDPS should be elevated. They are the only MDPS classes which have a viable role on the battlefield in ORvR situations (which, whether you like it or not, are mostly pug situations). Currently, even a player of average skill can perform a useful ORvR role in ANY tank or healing class, and yet nobody is clamoring for a nerf to Guard or general reduction to the potency of healing (which is almost comically powerful, in several cases). In contrast, MDPS players are largely just liabilities in any situation outside of a few select scenarios or organized 6v6 encounters (the only time I ever register a Slayer as a threat is when I know he is on coms with his pocket tank). Marauder/WL are the sole exceptions, and even in this case, it's difficult for me to identify any situation in which the mere presence of either becomes a determining factor in the outcome of any ORvR skirmish. Again, this is in contrast to ANY healer or tank played by a person with some degree of situational awareness and coordination.

Please consider adjustments to underperforming MDPS classes before nerfing the few which don't suck.

(to be totally transparent: sure, I play Marauder. But I also play other classes, and frequently get eaten alive by WLs. This, as far as I'm concerned, is the way it should be. A WL should be a significant threat in precisely the same way that a BW is. For the same reason, I shouldn't be allowed to virtually ignore a Slayer, or see a WH which has emerged from stealth as nothing more than a free kill.)

No


WL and Mara are not the standard to hold MDPS to. Mara espically is an overtuned class that's too good in too many situations that it's mandatory to always run one

They need to be brought back down to the levels of choppas and slayers becuase THEY are the standard that mdps should be held to, strong classes that need GROUP support to reach their full potential

[theoddone]

MARA CHANGE:
Cutting Claw should be 13 points (swapped with Draining Swipe). Then...
Growing Instability moved to T3 (swapped with Unstable Convulsions)...

I am a big fan of MINOR changes and I think these are minor enough.... it accomplishes both the goals.

Minor changes? lol. These changes are huge.

We all know crit and crit dmg is the name of the game, so you have to get the crit dmg tactic.
So what you are suggesting is that marauders have to be rr70 to be somewhat viable. Sorry but this is poor design. And apparently it is not enough that as a MDPS you need a guard and heals to perform, you need to be rr70 as well now...

With this change you are also making it less viable to stance dance and actually use the class mechanics, aka skillful play.

Whole thread lacks direction. The mara class has actually been discussed before in I think two balance threads regarding flames of fate and deadly clutch. This is seems like a nerf for the sake of nerfing. The argument that mara/wl needs to be nerfed because its an easier solution than buffing the other mdps classes is not good enough. We can not justify a nerf because its the easiest solution.

I think its funny that the thread starts with that there is massive whine and complaints about mara/wl. Then its agreed that it should be balanced around 6v6, but where is the massive whine from the people that actually does 6v6? They can be quite vocal about balance issues otherwise.

If you are going to do changes I would suggest looking at feeding on fear and TB value to begin with. 20% crit is huge and I'm surprised it has not been mentioned that much yet.

[Daknallbomb]

Mayb bring the other classes paar with wl and mara and dont Make wl and mara Bad.
The Thing with mara is the full Packet of debuffs. The Thing with wl is high mobility burst. Compare to wh/we sl/Ch . Mayb buff The other and Bit nerf something down. Its Hard enough to bring ppl down in an even Fight

[roadkillrobin]

Fixing the mastery pathing is also an option ofc. Moving the moast regarded skills higher up.
Imo swapping Force Oppertunity with Whirling Axe and Cull of the Weak with Thin the herd and Fetch from core skill to 9 points into Guardian and make Brutal Pounce a core skill that disarms instead of KD.

And for Marauder, Draining Swipe moved to 5 points, Thunderous Blow to 9 points and Cutting Claw to 13 points. Aswell as moving Guoliotine to 13 and Wave of terror to 5 Points. Making Wave of Mutation a core skill, Terrible Embrace moved to 9 points into Monstr, Wreckingball into 5 points and Concussive Jolt into 13 points.

[Arteker616]

MARA CHANGE:
Cutting Claw should be 13 points (swapped with Draining Swipe). Then...
Growing Instability moved to T3 (swapped with Unstable Convulsions)...

I am a big fan of MINOR changes and I think these are minor enough.... it accomplishes both the goals.

Minor changes? lol. These changes are huge.

We all know crit and crit dmg is the name of the game, so you have to get the crit dmg tactic.
So what you are suggesting is that marauders have to be rr70 to be somewhat viable. Sorry but this is poor design. And apparently it is not enough that as a MDPS you need a guard and heals to perform, you need to be rr70 as well now...

With this change you are also making it less viable to stance dance and actually use the class mechanics, aka skillful play.

Whole thread lacks direction. The mara class has actually been discussed before in I think two balance threads regarding flames of fate and deadly clutch. This is seems like a nerf for the sake of nerfing. The argument that mara/wl needs to be nerfed because its an easier solution than buffing the other mdps classes is not good enough. We can not justify a nerf because its the easiest solution.

I think its funny that the thread starts with that there is massive whine and complaints about mara/wl. Then its agreed that it should be balanced around 6v6, but where is the massive whine from the people that actually does 6v6? They can be quite vocal about balance issues otherwise.

If you are going to do changes I would suggest looking at feeding on fear and TB value to begin with. 20% crit is huge and I'm surprised it has not been mentioned that much yet.

U realy expected something else from this post?

[th3gatekeeper]

Fixing the mastery pathing is also an option ofc. Moving the moast regarded skills higher up.
Imo swapping Force Oppertunity with Whirling Axe and Cull of the Weak with Thin the herd and Fetch from core skill to 9 points into Guardian and make Brutal Pounce a core skill that disarms instead of KD.

And for Marauder, Draining Swipe moved to 5 points, Thunderous Blow to 9 points and Cutting Claw to 13 points. Aswell as moving Guoliotine to 13 and Wave of terror to 5 Points. Making Wave of Mutation a core skill, Terrible Embrace moved to 9 points into Monstr, Wreckingball into 5 points and Concussive Jolt into 13 points.

Now this would be interesting to see.... hmmm.... Brutal Pounce is pretty silly imo gap closer + KD..