[WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

[th3gatekeeper]

I am even nervous to open this can of worms... But I believe in this community! That we can not have this turn into a flame thread and I believe so much in us, that we can even keep this open without it getting locked! Lets see if my faith is well placed...

I log into my destro characters, and countless talks in /advice or really any channel about WL and how OP it is... I get on my order characters and I hear many comments about Maras and how OP they are.

So to set this foundation: BOTH Mara and WL are OP. So... now that we agree on this... I would love to have some honest discussion around the two classes. I have yet to see a proposal on how these both should be NERFED although (aside from Knight's) they might be the most overtuned classes in the game. They have it all... Damage, utility, mobility, etc. etc...

I have a 40 Mara myself but admittedly am no expert on the class. So I hesitate to make any suggestions around "tuning" the Mara at all. One question I do have (maybe from someone who understands BOTH classes better than I). It seems that one HUGE advantage WL's have over Mara, and what causes a ton of flame on Destro side, is Pounce.

Both classes have "Sprint" as well as CC immunity as well as "fetch/pull" as well as "flee" which gives them higher than normal mobility... however what is Destro's "Counter" to "Pounce?" I see WLs able to hop to backline squishies, KD, Armor debuff, and essentially the squishy dies in a few GDCs, and then WL pounces/sprints/immunties/flees out - options are endless.

However on a Mara, you lose that ability. So while you may Sprint in, There is no "easy out" in the same way... Your best bet is probably Mutating release and swap to Monstro or something... You just dont have that 1 extra "tool" that seems to give WL such and edge in this game...

Going back to our agreed upon premise - Mara has OTHER OP tools that WL doesnt have (piercing bite as one example), so I am NOT saying "WL more OP than Mara"... Im just trying to put my finger on these "Mirrors" and trying to see if we (as a community) can come up with a balance that addresses BOTH sides - because we ALL should know, any nerf to either of these without a nerf to the OTHER is going to be met with massive massive flame....

So maybe we can have some selfless honest, open discussion here about a balance proposal for BOTH at the same time?

Lets see how this shakes out... I really hope my faith isnt misplaced in the RoR community

[Daknallbomb]

Hmm is Hard to say at the Moment As long Bugs gives wl kd or fetch 2 k free Fall dmg on Enemy and so on its Hard to See what they rly can do.

[roadkillrobin]

No point in making these, it will just turn into "But you got that" and "But that one is better" etz. Both the classes struggle with intenal issues aswell as external ones that needs to be fixeed in isolation from each other. WL completly lacks a viable AoE spec wich gives em the right to pull out the "Don't nerf my ST spec" argument and Mara just got to much good stuff and will use the "But i need to swap stance* argument.

[Krima]

both classes should be nerfed to hell and be similar to a WE/WH lvl.. I still dont get why WL/MARA has more cc and on medium armor...while WE/WH on light and choppa/slayer with rage mecanic.

[th3gatekeeper]

both classes should be nerfed to hell and be similar to a WE/WH lvl.. I still dont get why WL/MARA has more cc and on medium armor...while WE/WH on light and choppa/slayer with rage mecanic.

Well... Would that be a solution? Nerf all armor sets so Mara and WL are "light" armor classes? Would atleast give them 1 drawback for all the cool stuff they get....

I guess I wonder this question to:
"What would WL need, for him to give up Pounce as an ability and still make them "fair" "... Like if Pounce were replaced with a Heal debuff, or Wounds debuff or something? Im just curious. Obviously Mara needs some nerfs too.. Mara's Having SO much good crap is just silly I agree! (wounds debuff/armor debuff/heal debuff/toughness debuff/list goes on)... But it seems to me that WLs wouldnt be "OP" if they just didnt have pounce... if Pounce were instead changed to a Wounds or Heal debuff or something else they "dont have" compared to Mara... Then Mara could drop 1 of its "tools" as well (maybe piercing bite? or Deadly Cutch removed) and see if that tunes them back a bit...

Then WL would have just "above average" mobility rather than being escape "gods"... Im just not sure...

[ToXoS]

I don't think these two classes should be nerfed.
They both are great MDPS, in a game where RDPS is easier and more poweful.
I honestly think that others MDPS classes should be buffed.
MDPS is more risky to play, and this game doesn't reward this risk.

[freshour]

I don't think these two classes should be nerfed.
They both are great MDPS, in a game where RDPS is easier and more poweful.
I honestly think that others MDPS classes should be buffed.
MDPS is more risky to play, and this game doesn't reward this risk.

Like give another class pounce? Maybe *mighty leap* for Mara?

[roadkillrobin]

MAra/WL is the least risky mdps to play, they almoast have 0 drawbacks and often hit harder then the classes that do. It's a complete mess tbh.

[th3gatekeeper]

I don't think these two classes should be nerfed.
They both are great MDPS, in a game where RDPS is easier and more poweful.
I honestly think that others MDPS classes should be buffed.
MDPS is more risky to play, and this game doesn't reward this risk.

I do strongly sympathize with this statement. I dont want to derail, though I completely agree and if it were up to me all melee would get "Sprint" as an ability - tanks included - to bridge this gap.

The problem is, both these classes are overtuned and its much easier to take a peg off each of these two, than it is to try and re-do the entire balance of the game by buffing more classes....

Maybe someone who knows these more than I do, can write up a short "List" identifying the special things that each class has over the other one....

IDk, I just think both these do need to get knocked down just a peg... just a SMALL amount... to make them onpar with everything else in the game and as I said, I would also love to see all melee given sprint - as a "RDPS meta counter" but lets just table that for now since that will go nowhere and lead to an SC vs RVR discussion etc...

[th3gatekeeper]

I don't think these two classes should be nerfed.
They both are great MDPS, in a game where RDPS is easier and more poweful.
I honestly think that others MDPS classes should be buffed.
MDPS is more risky to play, and this game doesn't reward this risk.

Like give another class pounce? Maybe *mighty leap* for Mara?

This could work, but Mara would have to give up something for this... Like if their Wounds debuff were removed and in its place Torq could replace with "Mighty Leap" kinda like he did with "Get Down" for BG. But IDK... is that a solution? That doesnt touch WL... just makes Mara more of a mirror...

MAra/WL is the least risky mdps to play, they almoast have 0 drawbacks and often hit harder then the classes that do. It's a complete mess tbh.

100% agree. It IS a mess, thats why I made this... I dont think 1 person has the ability to fine tune these two classes alone.. I think its going to take an honest objective community discussion to fix it.