But people, this is nothing new. On live Dok really could be top dps and solid healer in same time. Now with pure dps and melee healing it change a lot. Now dok can be "top" dps with verry low healing or medicore dps with high healing. There is nothing between like on live when Dok toped both at same time.
And just reminder. Dont judge classes by dmg done on scoreboard. In Doks case portion of this value belongs to flufy AOE dmg same for ID slayer, who toped scorebords in dmg, while pure sinle target classes toped it by DBs.
Many people complain(mostly healers) about melee healing, but while shamman,zeal can spam theyr heals from the safety of backline until they run out of AP, melee heal dok need to hit someone to heal which is far, far harder to do that if there are good tanks who KD,snare,root,KB making nightmare from melee healing.
Solution to mele WP/DoK
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Re: Solution to mele WP/DoK
yeah this isn't anything new I used to top the dmg/healing scoreboard in scenarios frequently enough before this patch, this issue with this is that the healing component of the class is totally overpowered, because the healing is undefendable
prior to this update the counter to melee healing was avoidance, now that counter is completely removed. the only hard counter to the melee healing now is to seperate them from their guard and have ranged DD kill them before they can do anything - and this works very effectively, i just think the community needs time to realize this.
however i do think the healing is in line for a nerf, i don't think a melee healer / dps hybrid should be pumping out numbers greater than regular dedicated backline healers for obvious reasons, but for everyone saying that this class should not being doing good damage and good healing
YOU ARE WRONG. this class is meant to do damage and heal AT THE SAME TIME.
just like a sword master can do excellent damage and be insanely tanky at the same time.
do you see me making threads demanding that they force SMs into 1 role only? no.
the way to go about normalizing the WPs and DoKs is going to be reducing the amount healed by their heals slightly. a few numbers tweaks.
prior to this update the counter to melee healing was avoidance, now that counter is completely removed. the only hard counter to the melee healing now is to seperate them from their guard and have ranged DD kill them before they can do anything - and this works very effectively, i just think the community needs time to realize this.
however i do think the healing is in line for a nerf, i don't think a melee healer / dps hybrid should be pumping out numbers greater than regular dedicated backline healers for obvious reasons, but for everyone saying that this class should not being doing good damage and good healing
YOU ARE WRONG. this class is meant to do damage and heal AT THE SAME TIME.
just like a sword master can do excellent damage and be insanely tanky at the same time.
do you see me making threads demanding that they force SMs into 1 role only? no.
the way to go about normalizing the WPs and DoKs is going to be reducing the amount healed by their heals slightly. a few numbers tweaks.
Re: Solution to mele WP/DoK
you know what lets not forget either that prior to this update a good DD dok/WP with a good guard was already an unkillable monster in a lot of situations, especially in the pug scenarios where coordination is lacking.
i think more than anything the community needs to calm down sit back and give this a week or so to figure out that there actually is ways to counter them, because atm the majority of players have no idea what to do.
IE: i'm at 50% health being focused by a sorc and a SH, and some noob snb tank runs in like "doiiii I'll help !" effectively letting me full HP heal off of him because that is how they do it, they heal from melee targets.
again not saying that there will not be the need for some numbers tweaks.
i think more than anything the community needs to calm down sit back and give this a week or so to figure out that there actually is ways to counter them, because atm the majority of players have no idea what to do.
IE: i'm at 50% health being focused by a sorc and a SH, and some noob snb tank runs in like "doiiii I'll help !" effectively letting me full HP heal off of him because that is how they do it, they heal from melee targets.
again not saying that there will not be the need for some numbers tweaks.
Re: Solution to mele WP/DoK
Exactly what I have been trying to get across to people as well, previous to the patch it was almost the same, only now it is 100% reliable ( apart from hard cc ) I would add the changes with detaunt/challenge/absorbs have been a good step in reducing the healing.sweetest wrote:yeah this isn't anything new I used to top the dmg/healing scoreboard in scenarios frequently enough before this patch, this issue with this is that the healing component of the class is totally overpowered, because the healing is undefendable
prior to this update the counter to melee healing was avoidance, now that counter is completely removed. the only hard counter to the melee healing now is to seperate them from their guard and have ranged DD kill them before they can do anything - and this works very effectively, i just think the community needs time to realize this.
Can only echo this statement.
Re: Solution to mele WP/DoK
The problem with the curreny implementation was that it was not take into account that these change would had not started by a backline build. The contribution which both the 2 mastery recive is out of balance. Is like have double the points invested in 1 path.
For exemple my back line dok g-heal for 630 in 1 sec cast. If i am fully 1rst path and swap to vitality with no point invested i can ista heal all my party for 550 with 1 gcd . This mean that every second a melee dok make 2 x staple of mu heals with out need to crit. Now think what happen when someome spec into trasfer essence path then the contribution would make skyrocket the heal component .
Not only they are able to heal more or less than me but lifetap do not suffer from any of the problem that a normal caster suffer from
- 2 healdebuff
-setback
-Interrupt (exept 1 skill)
Basically the only counter right know are kd and disarm.
The meccanic is fine the value proportion are not
If i can g-heal for 600 in 1 sec and in the other spec he can also make damage
He must do in melee (300 base beals x hit + crti) / x%
Where this x % is a reduction that need to be apply take into account the difference in efficency (lack of healdebuff / set back/ interrupt) + damages done
These are the proportion criteria, but the starting point are the difference towards a pure healer.
If pure healer heals are = 100% and damages 0% then the proportion of a melee healer should be spread between a 75% and 25% or viceversa.
So the errors are 2. Too high tooltips and 1 wrong mastery set up. There should not be 2 melee mastery, 1 more damages oriented or 1 more heal oriented. You shod have just one and toogle between heal or damage oriented. This leave you with 2 mastery. One is pure healer and the last one should be an aoe melee mastery with the same criteria before so that taking over 2 mastery he can decide when heal/attack aoe instead st so that he cal also have a role in the bomb.
Taking again transfer essence with the same point invested it should heal for 300 at max instead of 500 with no point invested.
If we take into account that you need a 75/25 division which the sum of heals + damages then that 300 of aie heals need to be 300 : 100= 3 x either 75 or 25 if you want that mastery be more offensive or healing. Now these value are low because we are talking of aoe.
Then life taps need to be made either influenced by heal debuff or suffer at least subsequantial reduction .
Cast time problem are absorbed into target swap and gap in range.
So 1 path should be st melee, 1 aoe melee, 1 heals
The toogle should be one for every path
Healer--> swap between backline and front line healer
St melee--> swap the proportion between dmg and heals
Aoe melee--> same as above but skill effecta are aoe/g
So in trasfer essence case if my g heal value is 600 for 1 sec cast.
Then trasfer essence aoe damage is 225 and 75 g heals or 75 damages aoe and 225 g-heals. One crit apply to both heal and damage component.
X 1 sec cast time/ 2 gcd is
450 aoe damages/ 150 g-heal
Or
450 g-heal /150 aoe damages.
Currently is like 3x time the value if my heal.
Also aoe and st are way too much mixed togheter; trasfer essence should make for exemple aoe damages and heal aoe; dok wp then need 1 skill for st heal which is not a channeling and all of this need to be affected by heal debuff and detaunt. Heal component need not to be a damage % based on damage done but fix values in way i wrote above so that damages reduction only influence the damages dealt and not stack the reduction of both detaunt/challenge with heal debuff.
P.s both the heal and damage component need to be able to crit togheter and they need to be based on offensive crit. Because the heal component need to apply even if the hit get party but this will balance the higer crit value of offensive skill. Because you have less chance to crit due your total hits to get defended.
The toogle should be:
-Heal proc enable heal oriented mode
-Snare proc enable melee oriented mod for both st and aoe mastery
-armor proc swap between front line and backline.
* as perfect balanced in damage/heals then these procs will be only be a dok/wp self buff.
For exemple my back line dok g-heal for 630 in 1 sec cast. If i am fully 1rst path and swap to vitality with no point invested i can ista heal all my party for 550 with 1 gcd . This mean that every second a melee dok make 2 x staple of mu heals with out need to crit. Now think what happen when someome spec into trasfer essence path then the contribution would make skyrocket the heal component .
Not only they are able to heal more or less than me but lifetap do not suffer from any of the problem that a normal caster suffer from
- 2 healdebuff
-setback
-Interrupt (exept 1 skill)
Basically the only counter right know are kd and disarm.
The meccanic is fine the value proportion are not
If i can g-heal for 600 in 1 sec and in the other spec he can also make damage
He must do in melee (300 base beals x hit + crti) / x%
Where this x % is a reduction that need to be apply take into account the difference in efficency (lack of healdebuff / set back/ interrupt) + damages done
These are the proportion criteria, but the starting point are the difference towards a pure healer.
If pure healer heals are = 100% and damages 0% then the proportion of a melee healer should be spread between a 75% and 25% or viceversa.
So the errors are 2. Too high tooltips and 1 wrong mastery set up. There should not be 2 melee mastery, 1 more damages oriented or 1 more heal oriented. You shod have just one and toogle between heal or damage oriented. This leave you with 2 mastery. One is pure healer and the last one should be an aoe melee mastery with the same criteria before so that taking over 2 mastery he can decide when heal/attack aoe instead st so that he cal also have a role in the bomb.
Taking again transfer essence with the same point invested it should heal for 300 at max instead of 500 with no point invested.
If we take into account that you need a 75/25 division which the sum of heals + damages then that 300 of aie heals need to be 300 : 100= 3 x either 75 or 25 if you want that mastery be more offensive or healing. Now these value are low because we are talking of aoe.
Then life taps need to be made either influenced by heal debuff or suffer at least subsequantial reduction .
Cast time problem are absorbed into target swap and gap in range.
So 1 path should be st melee, 1 aoe melee, 1 heals
The toogle should be one for every path
Healer--> swap between backline and front line healer
St melee--> swap the proportion between dmg and heals
Aoe melee--> same as above but skill effecta are aoe/g
So in trasfer essence case if my g heal value is 600 for 1 sec cast.
Then trasfer essence aoe damage is 225 and 75 g heals or 75 damages aoe and 225 g-heals. One crit apply to both heal and damage component.
X 1 sec cast time/ 2 gcd is
450 aoe damages/ 150 g-heal
Or
450 g-heal /150 aoe damages.
Currently is like 3x time the value if my heal.
Also aoe and st are way too much mixed togheter; trasfer essence should make for exemple aoe damages and heal aoe; dok wp then need 1 skill for st heal which is not a channeling and all of this need to be affected by heal debuff and detaunt. Heal component need not to be a damage % based on damage done but fix values in way i wrote above so that damages reduction only influence the damages dealt and not stack the reduction of both detaunt/challenge with heal debuff.
P.s both the heal and damage component need to be able to crit togheter and they need to be based on offensive crit. Because the heal component need to apply even if the hit get party but this will balance the higer crit value of offensive skill. Because you have less chance to crit due your total hits to get defended.
The toogle should be:
-Heal proc enable heal oriented mode
-Snare proc enable melee oriented mod for both st and aoe mastery
-armor proc swap between front line and backline.
* as perfect balanced in damage/heals then these procs will be only be a dok/wp self buff.
Re: Solution to mele WP/DoK
To people who say undefendable melee healing has no counter, sit and read.
The strongest source of DoK melee healing is Rend Soul, no doubt. Single target which heal your defensive target for impresive numbers and can save him from 5% to 100% in few seconds.
How to counter this undefendable melee healing? Holly molly jesus christ this sklil is channeled attack related to dmg done, woho,lets do this!!!
Counters to DoKs Rend Souls are any kind of interrupts or dmg debuffs: knockback,knockdown, Stagger, disarm, interupts, !TAUNT!, challenge, crit chance debuff, stat debuff(hello SM,Kotbs,WH-strongest str debuff in game,AM). There are so many ways how to counter rend soul, thats not even funny.
The strongest source of DoK melee healing is Rend Soul, no doubt. Single target which heal your defensive target for impresive numbers and can save him from 5% to 100% in few seconds.
How to counter this undefendable melee healing? Holly molly jesus christ this sklil is channeled attack related to dmg done, woho,lets do this!!!
Counters to DoKs Rend Souls are any kind of interrupts or dmg debuffs: knockback,knockdown, Stagger, disarm, interupts, !TAUNT!, challenge, crit chance debuff, stat debuff(hello SM,Kotbs,WH-strongest str debuff in game,AM). There are so many ways how to counter rend soul, thats not even funny.
Vdova - Witch elf princess of suffer and despair
Re: Solution to mele WP/DoK
You are talking about countering one skill, your other most used skills have very short cooldown and/or are undefendable and thus have little or no counter.
On the other hand, on my AM my most used skills (i.e. ST heal, ST channel heal, group heal) have long cast times and/or are channels and thus can be easily interrupted without the need to look for a single ability that I use every now and then like a Rend Soul. If they are not interrupted, they're easily setback with huge penalties associated to that. I also suffer from heal-debuffs, which are pretty rife in this game anyways. And then, I also suffer from KB, KD, Stagger, Silence, AP drains, Taunt, Challenge, etc, etc. My lifetaps can also be disrupted, as they are classified as magic.
Fact of the matter is... "normal" healers have many many more ways to be countered, counters that do not rely on CC immunity timers not being up, whilst melee DOK/WP has much fewer ways to be countered and the effective ones of those rely on CC timers and can thus only be applied every now and then.
Besides that, the "contribution" of WP/DOK are out of kilter. In a grossly oversimplified way, you contribute by either absorbing damage (i.e. a tank), dishing out damage (i.e. a DPS) or healing (i.e. a healer). If you are a jack-of-all-trades like a DPS or melee DOK, then you should be able to do various elements of that, but be worse than pure classes in all of them.
So if you go melee heal DOK/WP, you should do - for example, plucking numbers out of thin air for illustration purposes - 70% healing of a pure backline healer and 30% damage of a pure DPS class. Add up those numbers and you end up with 100%, whilst a pure DPS class would have a contribution of 100% DPS. However, the way it is now it's more like 70% heal and 70% DPS, and thus you can already seeing DOK/WP starting to push out pure DPS classes in premades and the 2xDOK/WP meta being solidified.
On the other hand, on my AM my most used skills (i.e. ST heal, ST channel heal, group heal) have long cast times and/or are channels and thus can be easily interrupted without the need to look for a single ability that I use every now and then like a Rend Soul. If they are not interrupted, they're easily setback with huge penalties associated to that. I also suffer from heal-debuffs, which are pretty rife in this game anyways. And then, I also suffer from KB, KD, Stagger, Silence, AP drains, Taunt, Challenge, etc, etc. My lifetaps can also be disrupted, as they are classified as magic.
Fact of the matter is... "normal" healers have many many more ways to be countered, counters that do not rely on CC immunity timers not being up, whilst melee DOK/WP has much fewer ways to be countered and the effective ones of those rely on CC timers and can thus only be applied every now and then.
Besides that, the "contribution" of WP/DOK are out of kilter. In a grossly oversimplified way, you contribute by either absorbing damage (i.e. a tank), dishing out damage (i.e. a DPS) or healing (i.e. a healer). If you are a jack-of-all-trades like a DPS or melee DOK, then you should be able to do various elements of that, but be worse than pure classes in all of them.
So if you go melee heal DOK/WP, you should do - for example, plucking numbers out of thin air for illustration purposes - 70% healing of a pure backline healer and 30% damage of a pure DPS class. Add up those numbers and you end up with 100%, whilst a pure DPS class would have a contribution of 100% DPS. However, the way it is now it's more like 70% heal and 70% DPS, and thus you can already seeing DOK/WP starting to push out pure DPS classes in premades and the 2xDOK/WP meta being solidified.
Last edited by Marsares on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
Karak-Norn /// Asildur - RR100 WL /// Marsares - RR95 AM /// Nirnaeth - RR64 SW
Re: Solution to mele WP/DoK
All other skills are undefendable and short cooldown? Dont get me wrong, there are 2 melee healin skills, that are undefendable: Rend soul(ST) and Transfer essence(group) heal. Today I have been in some SCs and in vitality covenant I did about 50k dmg(mostly unefective flufy AOE dmg) and 155k healing which seems to me pretty fair for lvl 38 DoK. Sure, pure classes had 100k+ dmg and pure healrs had 200k+ healings so for me experimental mode work as it should.
Vdova - Witch elf princess of suffer and despair
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Re: Solution to mele WP/DoK
Biggest diffrence before and after changes is that before changes most DoK/WP played as backline healers. Sometimes they were a bit more upfront since they're more tanky, but most of the times spamming caster heals.
This patch changes that and forced DoK/WP upfront since playing as backline healer is not so viable anymore (why play nerfed backline with little to no CC, kite? better to either adapt to frontline or roll a zealot/runepriest/shaman/archmage).
So biggest change is huge increase in number of frontline DoK/WPs.
As for OP proposals. I don't know what correct course of action is but let me tell you one thing: if I am going to do very little damage when melee healing then I won't bother to melee heal. Why would I? I will just simply play DPS build and if I feel like playing a healer I will roll a backline healer class.
This patch changes that and forced DoK/WP upfront since playing as backline healer is not so viable anymore (why play nerfed backline with little to no CC, kite? better to either adapt to frontline or roll a zealot/runepriest/shaman/archmage).
So biggest change is huge increase in number of frontline DoK/WPs.
As for OP proposals. I don't know what correct course of action is but let me tell you one thing: if I am going to do very little damage when melee healing then I won't bother to melee heal. Why would I? I will just simply play DPS build and if I feel like playing a healer I will roll a backline healer class.
Re: Solution to mele WP/DoK
The patch forced backline caster that should had been front line caster into melee healer which is not a fix. it then improved 2 other mastery for melee healers; that was the fix. Also no. the value is 1 and you can not do a 1:1 ratio between damage heal is ither 0,50 : 0,50 or 0.75:0,25 but out of this ripartition if there are not considerable reason the class is overpowered.
Durability is another matter that need to be andress with regard a 75% melee oriented and 25% heal oriented spec, since you can istant swap between the 2 build and you are still a melee and even if you start with a heal melee based stance you can pretty be on par with othee melee at need. This mean that in either case these classes must have the need to work with guard because
A) if you dont then a melee healer with the same build can istant swap from a heal oriented to a damage oriented and still preserve the same survability.
B) viceversa a damage oriented can swap to healer be unkillable also being the 3rd healer in the group making these 2 classes mandatory in every party composition.
Durability is another matter that need to be andress with regard a 75% melee oriented and 25% heal oriented spec, since you can istant swap between the 2 build and you are still a melee and even if you start with a heal melee based stance you can pretty be on par with othee melee at need. This mean that in either case these classes must have the need to work with guard because
A) if you dont then a melee healer with the same build can istant swap from a heal oriented to a damage oriented and still preserve the same survability.
B) viceversa a damage oriented can swap to healer be unkillable also being the 3rd healer in the group making these 2 classes mandatory in every party composition.
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