Stacking buffs

[Azarael]

1- Lower RR toons in t4 would suffer as the armor imbalance between say Warlord and Anni is too much. Armor pots and tallis equal things out just a tiny fraction more.

This is a problem with uncontrolled power gaps and should be solved properly.

2- Completely cuts down on customizing your toon. Everyone will be playing cookie cutter specs. While I know some of you think this is awesome, some of us actually like to have fun and try different things just for the hell of it.

Completely the wrong way around. Item abilities that are available to everyone actually reduce the number of specs by masking out class abilities which do the same thing. If everyone has an armor pot, why do I need abilities that buff my or my group's armor? I don't. If every MDPS has a Strength pot, what's the point of buffer abilities like Inspiring Attack or Sigmar's Fist? There isn't one.

Item abilities are in general a cancer.

I have already noticed the absence of Crit tallies and absorb pots and more important that of Liniments. Everything that allowed a mdps to operate, kill and escape if playing solo.

Yeah those are being kept out for various reasons ranging from avoiding ridiculous power inflation (crit. liniments) to avoiding using itemization to fix game design problems (absorb pots).

Lastly, you're damn right. I don't give a damn about soloing, I give a damn about group / warband level play and balance. If you want to solo things, go play an arena game.

[Luth]

Spoiler:

Removing Armor Pots and Talis .... interesting. Because they negate some buff or other from some useless tank or whatever ....

So basically you guys want to just make this a game of tanks and healers right? So I just should delete my WH's, my SW, my WE and SH? OHH Wait yeah... i forgot. I should not be out solo ganking, I should be in a group, because this is a group game and only group mechanics count as far as what is kept and what is not kept.

Why the hate towards any class that can solo? I do not get it? And yes, it is obvious bias favoring only group play. And not just that, but an obvious favoritism of tanks.

here are some other reasons why getting rid of armor pots and tallis would hurt the game;
1- Lower RR toons in t4 would suffer as the armor imbalance between say Warlord and Anni is too much. Armor pots and tallis equal things out just a tiny fraction more.

2- Completely cuts down on customizing your toon. Everyone will be playing cookie cutter specs. While I know some of you think this is awesome, some of us actually like to have fun and try different things just for the hell of it.

I have already noticed the absence of Crit tallies and absorb pots and more important that of Liniments. Everything that allowed a mdps to operate, kill and escape if playing solo.

No problem, just solo on BG/IB/SM/BO. And i can't find any official statement that talis will be removed. And yes, the balance descissions will always be focused on group vs group play, for obvious reasons and as told 100 times already.

[drmordread]

I have no problem with group play, and yes this mmo relies on groups for its game play. No one should have a problem with that. But unbalancing the game in favor of groups only just does not sit right in my mind.

Take armor pots for example;
Deleting armor pots insures that (1) a tank that enhances group toughness and a (2) healer that buffs armor, will always have 2 spots in any group.
To be an effective WB leader you must now up your game and learn which tanks buff what, which healers buff what, and use only those.
I know I know, if you lead WB's you should know this already and spread out the appropriate healers and tanks to all four groups.

But lets be honest. This is a game. Games are meant to be enjoyed, not sit there and do mathematical formulas every time someone leaves your group/wb and someone new needs to be found. Sorry but I find it pathetic that certain people will only run in groups with certain classes and all that stuff. To me (and many others) that is work, not a game.

All these group play centered changes that have been made, are the main reason I will not lead a WB or group in RoR. Back on live I was happy to lead WB's and had a bit of success doing so. I knew that each player would have the appropriate pots and linis to make them effective, and if not I was happy to make them (always do apoth and have a butcher toon) and pass them out for free, to make the wb better.
I can no longer send my mdps deep because they do not have the crit to kill a healer 10rr ranks higher than them. (unless it is a WE, because WE's have the +15% crit tactic. but I play order so that is moot)
I can no longer send SW's down the flanks to harass healers and heal debuff spam them, because the SW's can no longer escape, thus making them ineffective. (Unless I have Sh's who can harass healers with their squigs.... but I mostly play order so this moot as well).

So basically, while the devs feel that pots and lini's detract from the usefulness of certain tanks or healers .... I put forward that pots and linis (and absorb pots for deep strike mdps) enhance group play because now more classes can be included into a group/wb, which allows for more players playing a variety of classes, and not just cookie cutter accepted classes.

(I hope that makes sense)

EDIT: Also removing armor pots will completely doom 90% of the wb's/grps in WAR which are pugs.

[psylock81]

Imo, pots where designed in order to provide the option of minimizing a certain weakness or boosting a certain advantage.
e.g. 1handed+shield Tanks dont go for Strenght builds because they need to be tanky enough to soak loads of damage so they either use toughness and armor pots to boost the tank gameplay or they can use strength and armor pots to boost their ability to hit their target and thus not miss on a chanse to slow/stagger/repel etc.

Taking pots out (no matter what kind it is) will affect strategical planing and gameplay options both on solo and group level (plus the apothecary/cultivation/butchery profs will be utterly useless).
e.g. Solo-able classes that have low armor (WE/WH/SH) will not longer be able to roam the rvr lakes on solo missions because they will be squishy (no armor pot buff) and will not have the extra punch needed (no str/bal pot buff).

Although this will make the game more straight forward and casual it will also make it less flexible and less diverse.
e.g. DoK/WP will now be a MUST have in group due to Armor covenant/prayer. Chosen/KotBS will be a MUST have in group due to Str/Tough Auras. Zealots/RP will be a MUST have in group for will init buff. As a result 3 out of 6 spots will be reserved in group already for these classes leaving only 3 spots for the rest :S.

What is the reason behing this 'pot removal' though?
- Players/groups of lower rr find themeselves in a disadvantage agains higher rr players/groups? Well, they should be and trying to balance things out will only result in just 'holding the hand' to lower rr players and 'punishing' higher rr players.
- Players don't have the time to go farming for the pots?
Well, make friends and support them so that they support you .
- Players don't find the need to use abilities because the pots dont stuck with them?
Well, since we no longer need to do something doesn't mean we cannot do something else in its place .

I would suggest, instead of taking pots out of the game just add the pots that are missing in order to provide more flexibility and planing options (Weapon Skill, Initiative).

In conclusion, i believe that removing pots (specific ones or in general) will just diminish gameplay flexibility and strategical planing, because you will need specific classes for specific boosts thus making it more class oriented than it should be (as stated above), and it should not be done.

Thank you all for you patience (in reading this though sheet and i hope it made sence).

[Azarael]

Taking pots out (no matter what kind it is) will affect strategical planing and gameplay options both on solo and group level (plus the apothecary/cultivation/butchery profs will be utterly useless).
e.g. Solo-able classes that have low armor (WE/WH/SH) will not longer be able to roam the rvr lakes on solo missions because they will be squishy (no armor pot buff) and will not have the extra punch needed (no str/bal pot buff).

Cuts both ways. WH/WE don't have an armor pot? Neither do the opponents.

Pots mask out abilities, reducing strategical planning and gameplay options. Also, don't pretend as if there's any "strategical planning and gameplay options" in pots. I am melee dps? I pop armor/strength. I am tank? I pop armor/strength. I am healer? I pop armor and the other can vary. Armor's overperformance in this game has long since been known.

Also - we don't give a damn about 1on1.

Although this will make the game more straight forward and casual it will also make it less flexible and less diverse.
e.g. DoK/WP will now be a MUST have in group due to Armor covenant/prayer. Chosen/KotBS will be a MUST have in group due to Str/Tough Auras. Zealots/RP will be a MUST have in group for will init buff. As a result 3 out of 6 spots will be reserved in group already for these classes leaving only 3 spots for the rest :S.

If there are no pots to rely on, you have to provide the missing buffs through group composition, and then it is about ensuring that these buffs are spread well enough through all of the classes (further balance pass!). ST buffers like Ironbreaker and Black Guard suffer masking of some of their abilities because of pots as well. Players should not attempt to block a change because of immediate issues which may appear regarding WP/DoK/Chosen/Knight. Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. Sometimes you need to deliberately move through an imbalanced state of the game in order to fix an issue. This must be understood.

- Players/groups of lower rr find themeselves in a disadvantage agains higher rr players/groups? Well, they should be and trying to balance things out will only result in just 'holding the hand' to lower rr players and 'punishing' higher rr players.
- Players don't have the time to go farming for the pots?
Well, make friends and support them so that they support you .

No one cares about either of these, especially not me. I don't have to farm pots, I have kind players who provide them for me.

- Players don't find the need to use abilities because the pots dont stuck with them?
Well, since we no longer need to do something doesn't mean we cannot do something else in its place .

Sorry but it's not an answer. A class ability should never be masked out by a pot. Either the ability gets reworked (which trust me, you don't want as it would cause an even greater balance upheaval than reworking pots) or the pot is changed so that it doesn't render the ability obsolete. Otherwise that ability becomes internally imbalanced, and we will not abide any kind of imbalance, internal or external.

I would suggest, instead of taking pots out of the game i would suggest that the pots that are missing should be inserted in order to provide more flexibility and planing options (Weapon Skill, Initiative).

Over my cold, dead, rotting corpse.

The solution to pots masking out abilities is not then to add a boatload more pots so that they can mask out even more abilities!