Racial group fixing.

[Bozzax]

I split this up as it really is two things

The current ballance state for 6v6 is horrible.

Disagree with the disclaimer that rdps are suffering badly from 6v6 maps being extremely melee centric (EC being the prime example) and RD being op vs rdps.

(Off topic: I’d love to see a 6v6 map with water features and bridges possibly platforms.)

Fighting goin on for 15 min with 3 kills. That means the defensive capabillties are way to high for such small scale fights.

It is a bit like even football matches where two good sides can cancel each other out. “Even” teams really need to exploit a mistake of the other team to score.

Side note: These really are the best matches and the fact that the death count is low actually shows it quite balanced.

[roadkillrobin]

the thing is I didn't say they didn't though, nor am I the one arguing to balance around XvX maybe that is one of the reasons people like playing XvX (longer fights)

Yes, And i got no problem with people enjoying 6v6 or whatever format they prefer either. I'm not trying to take down the 6v6 Scenarios. My problem is that people ask for changes made to classes for 6v6. And changes made to cooldowns and morale rates for the sake of 6v6 wich have a massive effect on the other scales aswell. So when talking about ballance we need to have an anchor point were those abillties and classes are ballanced. And I can't prove this. But the moast logical point of "true" ballannce for single target damage and morale rates, and cooldowns is 12 people encounntering 12 other paople.

[Bozzax]

I'm sure you will understand this. A group of 6 need to have the same defensive capabillity taking on dps from Two groups (Standard Scenario Size) As well as a full warband (8 AoE dps)

There are very few groups that can cope when we put just 2dps and tanks on them. Good groups defend by pressuring us back until either side needs to break off, kite regroup.

There is no group that could cope if we had 4 organized dps and tanks on them (the standard SC size). When we face 2 PMs and they colab we normally loose because of this, regardless what the theory crafting says.

No 6man can soak up the damage from a WB without morales or CC-kite (avoiding the damage) this is just nonsense.

So lets hear your argument why you think 6v6 is a good anchor point for Ballance?

First off, imo there is no point in even considering balancing anything outside organized play. I also consider ALL organized play to be either 6vX or 24vX.

Organized 6vX
(I’ll skip 6v6 for obvious reasons.)

I consider SCs to be “organized 6vX with adds”. The adds normally don’t do much unless they are in another PM or are very good solo players (most aren’t). In reality organized 12v12 doesn’t even occur even in SCs, sorry.

Organized 24vX
Offensively you can organize 24vX (you can assist) but the defensive unit remains the same groups of 6 even in a WB.

There are no real defense measures for WBs besides counter attacking (do more damage), positioning (reduce the enemies damage) or fleeing. So not much to balance here more than adjusting damage output.

Let’s recap
12v12 don’t exist outside this thread and 6vX is common in SCs and in ORVR. Organized 24vX also occurs frequently in ORVR but I believe it is better to balance 6vX and up as there is very little you can fine tune defensively in WB settings. Ofc you need to look at AOE damage output as well.

[Bozzax]

My problem is that people ask for changes made to classes for 6v6. And changes made to cooldowns and morale rates for the sake of 6v6 wich have a massive effect on the other scales aswell.

I though the reduced morale rate was to get rid of cheese morale bombing setups in large scale RvR.

[footpatrol2]

The current ballance state for 6v6 is horrible. Fighting goin on for 15 min with 3 kills. That means the defensive capabillties are way to high for such small scale fights.

Just thought I'd chime in: that's more due to good players on both teams playing properly - resulting in few deaths - as opposed to defensive capabilities/imbalances. In a good premade vs bad premade 6v6, you'll see those '3 deaths' become 15+. Not to derail here but unless you actually know what you're talking about you shouldn't make factitious, unfounded statements.

I've participated in those types of groups for a LONG time where you only get to kill a handful of players. You'll do an entire SC with only 3 kills over 15 minutes or maybe even zero kills. What I'm saying is I think the next step after is morale bombs. If your building for morale bombs within your group there is a time limit. With the correct morale gain system each side has 100 sec's before they reach their morale 4...Once your locked and loaded on your morale bomb the meta flips.

Mythic stated that fights are suppose to last 30 sec's to 90 sec's. 90 sec's is pretty close to 100 sec's. I am pretty sure they thought we would use morale bombs to finish fights. You can still use morale bombs in mixed groups. Its just with racial groups there is strategy you can use to help you get to your morale bomb. In addition you'd gain 25 to 30% more morale faster in racial groups at one time. I'd bring banners to gain morale even faster. I wanted the cannon on the chariots back as FAST as possible when I ran those groups.

Look I'll take a mixed group example that players might not even realize they can use at the moment for morale bombing. Take 2 dok's dark rights slot m3 racial universal confusion, take a marauder with m2 racial Great Fang, take a BO with morale pump or don't take morale pump for deafening bellow 1200 30 ft damage. What did I just produce... thats a 4800 AE morale bomb. Yes you have to sacrifice Divine Protection on your Dok's. You Should have to sacrifice something if your building more offensively. Whats max health at the moment on most characters? 7k or 8k? Single down your target to 60% health pop morale bomb. You killed your target and now they are on a rez cycle with everything silenced and everything likely 30% health.

There are hidden combo's all over the place. Again Racial groups would gain 25 to 30% more morale gain then their opposition at one time. I use morale bombs in these racial groups along with racial defensive morale cycle's. Its the competitive edge that allows racial groups to compete.

Morale drains are placed at high value in this game. Not by the player-base but by the game itself. Most morale drains require a tactic. There is a entire meta built on morale bombs that the player-base hasn't pick up yet and how to counter them. I see it. I have been using it for years. I'm sorry the rest of the playerbase hasn't seen it. I'm sharing it with you now since racial groups are somewhat on the chopping block. But I can interact with the dev's here in RoR. I couldn't in AoR. My concerns fell on deaf ears in AoR. I am trying to get RoR not to pick up the torch where mythic left off.

This game is so much more brutal then players think it is or at least have gotten used too.

[TenTonHammer]

that really dosnt sound fun at all


i dont want to see morale bombing becoming more of a thing

and racial groups should be about those race classes synergizing well together not about waiting 90s then dropping massive AoE unmitigateable damage

When kings own ran around wasting people with magnet + BW RnD that was not fun and it generated a lot of hate in the community

[peterthepan3]

Thing is I agree with where you're coming from/what you're saying but the morale bombing stuff is a bit harder in a 6v6 as you are saving morales for defensive purposes a lot of the time (ID, WP M3, M2 Cleanse, Confusing Movements) so you can't be reliant on morale dumping to win you the fight (nor should you be, imo). Also I'd take anything that Mythic say regarding combat times with a pinch of salt given that they were pretty useless with balancing the game/paid no attention to it.

[footpatrol2]

Mythic never touched the morale gain system. RoR didn't understand it initially. Now they do and are hesitant to change it.

Why do you want to take shaman's is for the morale pump. Morale gain and defensive morale cycle's and morale bombs are deeply rooted in this game as far as balance is concerned. Playerbase never pick it up. I did.

@ peterthepan3
You can build groups to outlast. Or you can build groups to be more offensive. Apples/Oranges. Playerbase favored the more defensive option.

This just makes the game a lot more dynamic then players are used too, so the gut reaction is rejection because it is unfamiliar. Again I been doing this stuff for years.

[Bozzax]

You'll do an entire SC with only 3 kills over 15 minutes or maybe even zero kills.

The fun fact is I believe most that actually have played a 6v6 with that outcome on an organized level would tell you that those are the best SCs out of all SCs. I guess they are boring to watch though

I'd say they are 1 out of every 500 or so

[Luicetarro]

Actually, one of the best SC a guildmate had was a 3vs4. 7.5 minutes gameplay, won 500:450, 1 kill, he scored 101k dmg as only available dps. That Destro Zealot did an amazing job staying alive and keeping others healed.

Both sides had fun, got max emblems outta that.