[Black Guard]2H Disparity between IB?

[bloodi]

This statement is an exaggeration.

http://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/ ... il#p102506

Yet is par of the course.

[incredible]

This statement is an exaggeration.

http://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/ ... il#p102506

Yet is par of the course.

It's not his opinion that I claim is an exaggeration. The exaggeration is your portrayal that everyone takes his opinion as truth.

[Gobtar]

So if we are talking about right now on RoR. The IB's only reason to go two hander is to grab the two hander KD and do a ton of damage, he brings some synergy with 10% crit abulity (that stacks with Knight BS)...with armour values so low, the IB can really deal a absolute crap ton of damage (especially at full Grudge)

What's nice is that with the prevalence of Sorcs, and DPS shamans, the IB can proc Stubborn as Stone and have free Auto Attack haste.

The Black Guard, can also bring extra crit in terms of Crimson Death, can grab some Auto Attack haste if he wants to spend the tactic. At RR40 you can even grab your anti-detaunt tactic for full glass cannon. Both classes benefit from going into the DPS tree for their Armor debuff. Neither has access to their heal debuff...

This makes the opportunity cost much harsher on the IB, no access to AoE snare is a real bummer. The upside is to do the damage they want to do they only have to spend 2 tactics on DPS GA Mastery and SRevenge...leaving the third free for Rugged.

This is where the disparity begins. The BG's wounds debuff and AA haste are rolled into one great tactic, and the crit tactic is a little hard to work with comparatively. Is AA really worth it? Well, it used to be for a lot of classes, but both of these classes want to be using their channels for maximum value.

Simply put a BG needs 3 tactics to the IBs 2 tactics for DPS. BG needs the anti-detaunt tactic if it wants to do high burst damage, and not simply be ignored, wounds debuff/AA haste to maximise it's burst, and of course the crit tactic to even apply they wounds debuff...which needs to dance around the hatred mechanic. Now the flip side to this, is if you do have a marauder, to assist you, it saves you a tactic slot, so you can grab rugged, though alot of the sustained damage comes from your AA.

Iron breakers, well, sweet revenge is a solid way of keeping yourself at +15% crit...easy to do, and you get +10% damage from GWMastery. The IB already can do impressive damage even before this tactic, you add in taunt,armor debuff, heavy blow cave in and Grudgeborn fury and you are dealing a tremendous amount of back loaded damage.

The funny thing is, when you compare the two, the IB will do more damage than the BG unless the IB is detaunted. The BG really shines when beating on targets with AoE Detaunt. The IB still gets to keep his KD though, making that detaunt that much harder to get off. Alot of IBs will just use Cave-in rather than lining up their rotation, and then wonder why there damage isn't as good as it should be...shrugs.

This disparity increases as discussed once you hit tier 4 territory. As pointed out earlier the ability to lock a class down with AP is strong, and in long fights could really add benefit, but not having access to a AoE Snare is also big.

once tier 4 is out the damage & threat potential of the BG needs to be looked at seriously, see if it's in line with other tanks and if it is...then we can talk about possibility of 2h KD.

[bloodi]

It's not his opinion that I claim is an exaggeration. The exaggeration is your portrayal that everyone takes his opinion as truth.

http://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/ ... =8&t=11685

[Tesq]

Mara specd up to DS debuffs 1.3k hp

HD specd up to CD is 1.1k

Im still waiting for you to tell me the numbers for blast wave at quake

Blast wave is a 360 on a 20ft radius on a 20s cd

You debuff wounds on an aoe with CD with is 40ft cone on a 10s CD

Just because CD is an AoE ability dosnt mean it cant be used for st, CD is not some ability that turns BG into an AoE class


Wat makes you think a WE will run outgoing hd kiss? what if they run iniative stat steal kiss insted?

furthermore what ever made you think i was talking about this in the context of lol WB v WB

if this was in the context of WB v WB you can run whatever **** you want cause all balance discussion go out the window

you have damnity BO debuffing every single stats you dont need we do debuff initiative...and chosen with 2 free support aura... WE will run heal debuff as it's spamable and does not requrie a tactic and can be apply exing from hide also while your bg get see by 100 feet.

BO
-all stats buff/debuff
-stackable wep buff

chosen
3x not stats auras (1 is resistences)
-super punt

mara
-armor debuff
-wounds debuff
-heal debuff

we
-whichbrew
-heal debuff


BG buff 1ppl 1 stat while >BO buff all party ppl just spamming hits there is no reason to take BG

[incredible]

It's not his opinion that I claim is an exaggeration. The exaggeration is your portrayal that everyone takes his opinion as truth.

http://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/ ... =8&t=11685

Quite a bit of disagreement in that thread. Again - your statement was an exaggeration. Thanks for linking posts to prove that point.

[Penril]

Simply put a BG needs 3 tactics to the IBs 2 tactics for DPS. BG needs the anti-detaunt tactic if it wants to do high burst damage, and not simply be ignored, wounds debuff/AA haste to maximise it's burst, and of course the crit tactic to even apply they wounds debuff...which needs to dance around the hatred mechanic. Now the flip side to this, is if you do have a marauder, to assist you, it saves you a tactic slot, so you can grab rugged, though alot of the sustained damage comes from your AA.

You forget that the BG builds hatred more easily than IB builds grudges. Most IB's need to spec Rising Anger (unless they are constantly swapping Oathfriend, which we know not many IB's do; most can barely swap guard).

The funny thing is, when you compare the two, the IB will do more damage than the BG unless the IB is detaunted. The BG really shines when beating on targets with AoE Detaunt. The IB still gets to keep his KD though, making that detaunt that much harder to get off. Alot of IBs will just use Cave-in rather than lining up their rotation, and then wonder why there damage isn't as good as it should be...shrugs.

Good players will always keep you detaunted. All mdps classes have AoE detaunts, and the only healers without one are Zeal and RP; however, BG's are a RP worst nightmare anyway (if they can catch them). BG is more dangerous to RP than IB is to Zealot.

[Gachimuchi]

You forget that the BG builds hatred more easily than IB builds grudges. Most IB's need to spec Rising Anger (unless they are constantly swapping Oathfriend, which we know not many IB's do; most can barely swap guard).

L2P issue

Good players will always keep you detaunted. All mdps classes have AoE detaunts, and the only healers without one are Zeal and RP; however, BG's are a RP worst nightmare anyway (if they can catch them). BG is more dangerous to RP than IB is to Zealot.

DoK is easier to reach for an ironbreaker than a RP is for a blackguard. The detaunt tactic can be good if you are specced to deal damage but if you're going up the tank tree any possibility of that goes out the window. Regardless its one of the few things BG has going for it DPS-wise.

[Sulorie]

It's not his opinion that I claim is an exaggeration. The exaggeration is your portrayal that everyone takes his opinion as truth.

http://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/ ... =8&t=11685

Quite a bit of disagreement in that thread. Again - your statement was an exaggeration. Thanks for linking posts to prove that point.

Who disagreed there? The trolls, elitists or people who just argue for the sake of arguing?

[Gobtar]

You forget that the BG builds hatred more easily than IB builds grudges. Most IB's need to spec Rising Anger (unless they are constantly swapping Oathfriend, which we know not many IB's do; most can barely swap guard).

L2P issue

Good players will always keep you detaunted. All mdps classes have AoE detaunts, and the only healers without one are Zeal and RP; however, BG's are a RP worst nightmare anyway (if they can catch them). BG is more dangerous to RP than IB is to Zealot.

DoK is easier to reach for an ironbreaker than a RP is for a blackguard. The detaunt tactic can be good if you are specced to deal damage but if you're going up the tank tree any possibility of that goes out the window. Regardless its one of the few things BG has going for it DPS-wise.

After the initial conflict, the IB should have much less of a problem gaining grudges and keeping them. I never felt the need to slot Rising Anger on my IB. Like the BG the IB wont be at full power within the first 15 seconds of the fight (unless you are fighting an AoE spammer or being targeted directly), after this the IB shouldn't have a problem. The BG does have an easier time gaining hatred especially in DPS mode, but are also MUCH more likely to spend the hatred they gain, making the resource dance a real thing.

I think Penrils point is that IBs are not scary to zealot even though zealot does not have an AoE detaunt. It is true that Zealots have less to fear from a IB than a RP has from a BG. The difference is Zealots fear a lot more than a RP ever fears. In this case, it's not about how good the BG is or isn't, it's about how much easier the RP has it over the Zealot. Like wise Doks might not fear as many MDPS classes due to their cleanse ability, but the IB becomes even more valued in the 2 Dok meta. Forcing the Doks to burn their M2 when it is less convenient..

As Gachimuchi restated, Doks are much easier to get to, meaning that punishing knock tactic is much less of a trap, and the mileage goes further (especially since DoKs are within 30 ft of the battle line.)