[Suggestion] Making guard less OP

[Soulcheg]

soulcheg, if you are guarding a choppa in the MIDDLE of the enemy zerg you are supposed to die,
And if not, there is somth wrong with guard, if it allows you to stand in the enemy zerg without dying.
just saying.

Out/In heal debuffs, wound debuff, armor debuff, throw guard away - target dead in a second. It's a really learn to play issue , i mean - you must know what are you doing in the middle of the fight. Not guard should be fixed, but people's mind.

"Hey, it's suggestion subforum, so i definitely MUST suggest smthn.... hmm, what should i SUGGEST? Hey, i couldn't kill solo guarded DoK yesterday... hmmm. NICE IDEA, let's nerf guard!"

That's what it looks like.

soulcheg, if you are guarding a choppa in the MIDDLE of the enemy zerg you are supposed to die,
And if not, there is somth wrong with guard, if it allows you to stand in the enemy zerg without dying.
just saying.

This is a subjective argument and should probably be refrained from. Unless you properly define what "zerg" is and how much incoming damange we are talking about. I am sure soulcheg would not expect a guarded Choppa to survive for long being focused by a 12+ ppl.

[Cimba]

Even though this thread is probably beyond repair... IMO Guard is the most retarded ability ever invented. 50% incomming damage reduction on a target and all you have to do for it is being around? Unfortunately the game is balanced around this ****... but maybe something could be done so that guarding someone requires at least a minimum of skill.

[Drak]

A properly specced guarding tank will survive through an encounter until his healers are dead, and then he will die guarding the survivors of his party. So he'll die either from a killing blow or from guard damage.

I played two tanks to 40/100 and one to 40/94 on live and anaisse, I applaud your feat of only dying once from guard damage in getting to 40/90. I doubt any other tank in live achieved that.

I was the DoK healer for the LoS premade, which some people may remember included Phec and Pallien as the tanks, so I saw every night that they were taking a beating guarding our squishies. They didn't die much but the damage they took while guarding was considerable. The cumulative damage made them likely to die from guard damage because usually the only two left if we lost an encounter/scen were me and one of those tanks, who then effectively died guarding me. They still had heals but in effect died of guard damage. So maybe let's not be so quick to lol at tanks like those guys.

And yes, with good healers and tanks, mdps can survive in a knot of enemy players.

Guard is usually not OP, but a skilled player can make it so. Phec, Pallien and Karnuss did. And sometimes they died from it.

[dirnsterer]

Even though this thread is probably beyond repair... IMO Guard is the most retarded ability ever invented. 50% incomming damage reduction on a target and all you have to do for it is being around? Unfortunately the game is balanced around this ****... but maybe something could be done so that guarding someone requires at least a minimum of skill.

Seriously, go play some MDPS and you will be seriously surprised how many tanks just fail at that simplest thing. They A) Guard healers and rdps while running around in enemy backline. B) They guard mdps for once and then run away to do their "deeps" solo and not assisting C) If they manage to guard proper target and stay close, then there is another level of difficulty to it, which is guard swap that they will not pull off in a long long time. Add on top of all that the fact that you can just punt the guard away and coordinate burst to the target in that short time which usually drops targets. Then adding to that after the tank gets punted away they can be slowed, rooted or such making them have a little more time to reach their guard target. And on TOP of all that, the tanks should do their other things. As in snare targets, punt enemy guards away, root things, assist with damage etc.

So it is not really as simple as people make it to be.

[saupreusse]

Vaul, if someone is talking about a "zerg" ofc ppl expect at least 24+ players. But let's don't dwell on this much longer, I got what you wanted to say.
soulcheg,it is not like I died once to a guarded SP with a kotbs. It is something that stood out from the very first day I played.
I always found it totally over the top that 50% of the dmg is being (mostly) ignored.
we are speaking of 50% flat. But that is not what makes me think so much about it.
Not being able to change smth about that number, or counter it in any way possible but super punting everyone out of the map leaves me speechless from time to time.
I experienced this when i play against good guards or when i am guarded myself.
There are not enough counterabilities imo.
healdebuffs can be cleansed. guard can't.

[saupreusse]

Even though this thread is probably beyond repair... IMO Guard is the most retarded ability ever invented. 50% incomming damage reduction on a target and all you have to do for it is being around? Unfortunately the game is balanced around this ****... but maybe something could be done so that guarding someone requires at least a minimum of skill.

Seriously, go play some MDPS and you will be seriously surprised how many tanks just fail at that simplest thing. They A) Guard healers and rdps while running around in enemy backline. B) They guard mdps for once and then run away to do their "deeps" solo and not assisting C) If they manage to guard proper target and stay close, then there is another level of difficulty to it, which is guard swap that they will not pull off in a long long time. Add on top of all that the fact that you can just punt the guard away and coordinate burst to the target in that short time which usually drops targets. Then adding to that after the tank gets punted away they can be slowed, rooted or such making them have a little more time to reach their guard target. And on TOP of all that, the tanks should do their other things. As in snare targets, punt enemy guards away, root things, assist with damage etc.

So it is not really as simple as people make it to be.

you managed to make it sound harder than it actually is.

[dirnsterer]

I experienced this when i play against good guards or when i am guarded myself.
There are not enough counterabilities imo.
healdebuffs can be cleansed. guard can't.

Then the healdebuff will be soon re-added anyways, after cleanse. And if people focus fire a guarded target they will go down. It is a bit harder but it is not the instant.
"Lol, I just globaled that WH"
- Yours truly, sorc.

And then also you can coordinate a morale burst on the target too.

Edit: Fixed some typos

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Vaul, if someone is talking about a "zerg" ofc ppl expect at least 24+ players. But let's don't dwell on this much longer, I got what you wanted to say.
soulcheg,it is not like I died once to a guarded SP with a kotbs. It is something that stood out from the very first day I played.
I always found it totally over the top that 50% of the dmg is being (mostly) ignored.
we are speaking of 50% flat. But that is not what makes me think so much about it.
Not being able to change smth about that number, or counter it in any way possible but super punting everyone out of the map leaves me speechless from time to time.
I experienced this when i play against good guards or when i am guarded myself.
There are not enough counterabilities imo.
healdebuffs can be cleansed. guard can't.

You are the OP so it is on you to provide evidence whether a guard nerf is necessary or not.
Evidence can be analytical or empirical.
Possible pen&paper attempt for you:

Dmg provided by a damagedealers -> dps (affected by number of damagedealers and guard) (post mitigation dps)
heal provided by a healers -> hps (affected by numbers of healers and inc hd)
if dps > hps -> hitpoints / (dps-hps) = ttk
else target stays alive

Your turn.

[ThePollie]

Most of my contempt for the Guard ability stems from being a melee healer. If your target is guarded, it's effectively an infinite heal-debuff you can never remove, on top of the normal mitigation that is already cutting into your healing.

And I've heard the never-ending argument of "Just attack someone that isn't guarded." Like who? In the generic cookie-cutter 2/2/2 premade set-up, you're either attacking a guarded melee DPS, a tank, or their healers and mages in the back-line.

Attacking a tank is idiotic, it's marginally better than attacking a Guarded target, if you can keep behind them to avoid blocks. Any coordinated team will smash you to pieces if you even try to move into their back-line. Even if you can get there alive, you're greatly over-extended against targets that can just detaunt or kite you into oblivion, and you aren't healing at all until you reach there.

I'm not saying Guard needs some heavy-handed nerf to the ground, it's a fairly vital part of tanking roles. But for melee healers it's a massive brick wall that we have no play against. DPS can use armour debuffs, heal-debuffs, and overwhelming damage to bulldoze through guard. Melee healers have none of those. All we can do is pound of whatever target is available and hope our healing isn't so crippled by the fifty different sources of mitigation that we can't keep pace.

[dirnsterer]

Most of my contempt for the Guard ability stems from being a melee healer. If your target is guarded, it's effectively an infinite heal-debuff you can never remove, on top of the normal mitigation that is already cutting into your healing.

And I've heard the never-ending argument of "Just attack someone that isn't guarded." Like who? In the generic cookie-cutter 2/2/2 premade set-up, you're either attacking a guarded melee DPS, a tank, or their healers and mages in the back-line.

Attacking a tank is idiotic, it's marginally better than attacking a Guarded target, if you can keep behind them to avoid blocks. Any coordinated team will smash you to pieces if you even try to move into their back-line. Even if you can get there alive, you're greatly over-extended against targets that can just detaunt or kite you into oblivion, and you aren't healing at all until you reach there.

I'm not saying Guard needs some heavy-handed nerf to the ground, it's a fairly vital part of tanking roles. But for melee healers it's a massive brick wall that we have no play against. DPS can use armour debuffs, heal-debuffs, and overwhelming damage to bulldoze through guard. Melee healers have none of those. All we can do is pound of whatever target is available and hope our healing isn't so crippled by the fifty different sources of mitigation that we can't keep pace.

I used to play with a dps healer (DoK) in ye olden premades with 1/3/2 setup. And it worked miracles. But the thing here is that it is mostly DPS healer. Not dps HEALER. If you catch my drift. You should still have healers supporting you. The DoK used to have two specs, one was pure dps and one was bit more support leaning, and the support build worked out well to give out some heals and such for others in times of need. Especially when going against other premades.