[PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

[bloodi]

It would be one Sc for pugs only. If that really leads to all other Scs being empty we can still reverse the change.

Well then dont do it at all, once you open the path of least resistance, everyone will walk that one and assk for every other path to be the same.

Same with premade only scs, now people gloat a lot about how much they will play it but once it opens, its will probably be dead as soon as people find they only lose in it.

Waste of time and resources imo.

[tomato]

Still can't see how giving pugs an option to play Scs without encountering premades is a problem...

If pugs are not forced to build a grp why should they? No pug wants to fight a premade.
Giving pugs pug-only-scs will lead to a premade-only-queue, which will be empty.
No reason to build a premade anymore -> fails the whole concept of WAR/RoR.

Build premade wb that's the whole concept of war not build premade 6 men partys.

Tell me about what purpose any dps other than bw/sorc, sl/choppa and (one per wb) engi/magus serve.
You're right, none.
And you can reduce viable healers to wp/dok if you're talking about wb only.
And tanks to knight/chosen/sm.

If wb vs wb would be the ultimate goal of this game,like 50% of the classes would be completly useless.

[bloodi]

If wb vs wb would be the ultimate goal of this game,like 50% of the classes would be completly useless.

You can do that with every aspect of the game, pve, premade 6vs6 and so on.

I guess the point its that there is no ultimate goal.

[mursie]

If pugs are not forced to build a grp why should they? No pug wants to fight a premade.
Giving pugs pug-only-scs will lead to a premade-only-queue, which will be empty.
No reason to build a premade anymore -> fails the whole concept of WAR/RoR.

I find this logic amusing.

So by your own words, giving pugs a pug only sc will lead to premade ques being empty. Thus, you are admitting that the MAJORITY of the player base would rather pug or are pugs, because giving them this option would make premade ques empty.

Yet, instead of building something for the MAJORITY of players (again you admitted this in your statement), you would rather maintain the current system where the pugs must endure premade stomps.

If your premade que is empty..that should be a pretty telling fact for you - but just incase it isn't, I'll spell it out (The MAJORITY of people must not want to premade).

I personally do not think premade ques will go empty. I do think they will be less active than the pug ques...because guess what - the MAJORITY are pugs.

In conclusion, based on your words, the minority are actually premades. The majority are pugs. Yet you want to maintain a system that caters to the minority.

That's how a game dies.

[bloodi]

LMAO at this logic. .

You shouldnt use those words when you didnt understand what he said at all.

[mursie]

LMAO at this logic. .

You shouldnt use those words when you didnt understand what he said at all.

Comprehension of his post is not a problem. Check the mirror.

Here's a breakdown for the reading challenged:

1. "If pugs are not forced to build a grp why should they? No pug wants to fight a premade." - so pugs would rather pug. They are casual and don't care to group up. Premades force people to have to group to try and remotely resemble any form of competitiveness with said premade, because without premades no one would group...they would pug.

2. "Giving pugs pug-only-scs will lead to a premade-only-queue, which will be empty." This takes some additional pieces to put together. Giving pugs a pug-only-sc will lead to a premade-only-queue. WHy? because the sc's that are not pug-only will effectively become premade only since pugs per #1 will only want to pug and thus only que pug only sc's. The remainder of ques therefore become defacto premade only ques. In addition, these defacto premade only ques will be empty. Why? because the majority of players are pugs..and want to pug. No one will que for the premade ques.. the few that do que for it...will have long que times and abandon it. basically, the premade groups are a small population and their defacto premade ques will be effectively empty due to low population

3. "No reason to build a premade anymore -> fails the whole concept of WAR/RoR." Because premade ques (basically all ques that are not pug only) are empty and low pop no one will build a premade anymore. Which in one person's opinion fails the concept of war.

Except, warbands and scenarios create pugs which is a group "picked up" of randoms. Those randoms are thrown together to accomplish objectives and fight the opposing side... which could be considered the concept of WAR. So, to say that not building a premade fails the concept of war...is perhaps dubious at best. However, that is not the point of my response. I do not care to argue point #3 above. Agree to disagree. The hilarity is points #1 and #2. noting that infact the majority of the population that plays the game would rather pug...yet not wanting to design anything for it because the minority would then have an abandoned system.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Further, I think premades will still get their jollies...premade groups will still want to play, it's just that their minority take on the game may mean that que times will be longer than the majority que times which are pugging.

[Jaycub]

Except it is common knowledge that virtually every game casuals/pugs are the overwhelming majority. Why would it be any different here?

Not even sure why this is being argued

[tomato]

If wb vs wb would be the ultimate goal of this game,like 50% of the classes would be completly useless.

You can do that with every aspect of the game, pve, premade 6vs6 and so on.

I guess the point its that there is no ultimate goal.

Every class except maybe magus/engi is viable in 6vs6.

[peterthepan3]

If pugs are not forced to build a grp why should they? No pug wants to fight a premade.
Giving pugs pug-only-scs will lead to a premade-only-queue, which will be empty.
No reason to build a premade anymore -> fails the whole concept of WAR/RoR.

LMAO at this logic.

So by your own words, giving pugs a pug only sc will lead to premade ques being empty. Thus, you are admitting that the MAJORITY of the player base would rather pug or are pugs, because giving them this option would make premade ques empty.

Yet, instead of building something for the MAJORITY of players (again you admitted this in your statement), you would rather maintain the current system where the pugs must endure premade stomps.

If your premade que is empty..that should be a pretty telling fact for you - but just incase it isn't, I'll spell it out (The MAJORITY of people must not want to premade).

I personally do not think premade ques will go empty. I do think they will be less active than the pug ques...because guess what - the MAJORITY are pugs.

In conclusion, based on your words, the minority are actually premades. The majority are pugs. Yet you want to maintain a system that caters to the minority.

That's how a game dies.

1) The game is dead already. That point is mute (you make it quite often, it seems)
2) Premades should not have to suffer longer queue times for the exact same rewards, purely as a direct consequence of the saltiness from players such as yourself. Why should people who put time into making a group, setting up a voice comms network, play with eachother on a daily basis with the goal of winning scenarios in mind have to suffer because YOU can't learn to do the same? It pisses me off, to be frank.
3) Pugs don't have to endure premade stomps - THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. Your inability FIND a group in a GROUP-ORIENTATED PVP GAME is a "pretty telling fact" of yourself.

People that don't bother their arses to get into a groups, yet are all too eager to join up to a leeching WB and farm empty keeps/roflstomp small numbers don't deserve to have any leeway when it comes to scenarios. At all.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Further, I think premades will still get their jollies...premade groups will still want to play, it's just that their minority take on the game may mean that que times will be longer than the majority que times which are pugging."

That is not the case when the game is not bringing in profit/active as a commodity. Instead, the developers can choose to make the game however they would like. People insist on getting everything given to them for not joining a group; for avoiding premades altogether so they can happily battle it out against other pugs - their opinions do not really weigh a lot when discussing something that pertains to small-scale PvP.

Also this insistence on 'most people being pugs, therefore they should have their demands met' isn't really true. As of late, I've seen a loooot of new guilds - both destro and order - focusing on 6-man play. These are either new players, or people that have learnt to adapt to the scenario environment. Those who haven't (read: 'how dare you suggest I find/make a group?!!#) are the ones who are complaining, as per usual.

And Tesq - normally i ignore the stuff you write (as do most people), but if you genuinely think the game is 'about' premade WB vs WB then nah. End-game it was 6man groups all the way. Even now, the action you get from a group like Orz or Gankbus on destro is 10x more fun/intense than any warband action. I believe the devs are trying to focus on ensuring each class can perform in 6mans, so that is also a "pretty telling fact" of the direction into which the current devs wish to steer the game.

[Jaycub]

Stomping shitters/pugs in a mixed que isn't fun, and is the reason why a lot of people in my guild are pretty much on hiatus until 6v6 ques. When you have 32/40 full dev characters and progression is done the only thing left that keep me and im sure others playing is the challenge / thrill of a good fight.

Premade vs Premade ques are not only to keep PUGs safe, but promote competitive play.