WH/WE Changes

[Jaycub]

Some small core changes to a class that I think is in a good spot, but could use some help. Goal of these changes are not to buff the WH/WE's damage or create some kind of Frankenstein on par with slayer/Choppa/Mara, just some changes that should increase its skillcap, and reliability of certain core mechanics.


Stealth (Core) - Edit: After changes to stealth post this thread this idea is pretty moot/unfeasable. Noisestorm's suggestion for simply reducing the cooldown to 20 seconds seems to be a good compromise at this point. With a 20 sec cooldown the reliability of the skill and it's abilities tied to it are increased to a good spot.

Feinted Positioning (Core) - CD reduced to 30 seconds, duration reduced by about half (4 seconds), AP cost reduced from 25 to 15. This skill again is so core to WH/WE yet at 60 sec CD you find yourself without it a lot. The reduction in time balances it out, the shorter duration but more frequent availability of the skill reflects its use as a skill used to get off positionals when you are unable to. Which is often any time you are in meele range and your snare immunity is off CD. This also gives a bit more viability to the WH/WE's situation with snaring.

Server Blessing (Core) - Now grants 1 accusation/bloodlust. The entire class is built upon combo building, server blessing is a solid skill that many classes have access to, but the WH/WE gets the least out of it because by using this skill they are giving up a point in accusation or bloodlust.

Bullets / Kisses (Core) - No longer have a GCD (act similar to relics/elixirs) AP cost increased to 30. The main "skillcap" increase out of all these changes, it will promote switching buffs mid fight at the cost of AP (resource management). The length of the ini debuff could be decreased to 5 seconds down from 10 if this change seems a bit much. You would then be able to swap between two 5 sec debuffs and AP stealing.

Blessed Bullet of Purity / Kiss of Agony (Buff) - base ini steal increased to reflect similar abilities specifically certain 5 piece set bonuses (72 at level ~30). I don't think this bullet is ever used, not only is the type of debuff not that desirable compared to others, it's value is also seemingly low. This along with the change to the GCD should make this a viable ability.

[Renork]

Wouldn't this allow you to perma-stealth though?

Yes I'm being a caster dps per Mezz.

[Jaycub]

for over a minute I am sure, with 3 seconds in between each cast. But I don't really see this as a problem. You are not allowed to do anything while in stealth. And your AP would be hugely drained if you used it for that long.

I can't think of any situations where this can be abused off the top of my head.

Interactions with certain objectives or objects, or the ability to carry a part while stealthed etc... is the only thing I can really think of, and those are all easily fixable or currently already impossible to do.

Edit: Ok so if you do time it perfectly you can stealth and wait ~20-25 seconds then hit the backlines and possibly get a kill and stealth out unnoticed almost immediately after getting the kill. This would require an astronomical amount of luck/RNG, as a tank just spamming throw axe/dagger at you can keep you from getting away, and it also presumes the team has absolutely no communication whatsoever.

And even so, is that really broken if you are able to pull that off? once every ~60 seconds at most, when even pulling it off once is extremely unlikely?

[Renork]

for over a minute I am sure, with 3 seconds in between each cast. But I don't really see this as a problem. You are not allowed to do anything while in stealth. And your AP would be hugely drained if you used it for that long.

I can't think of any situations where this can be abused off the top of my head.

Interactions with certain objectives or objects, or the ability to carry a part while stealthed etc... is the only thing I can really think of, and those are all easily fixable or currently already impossible to do.

Well, the only thing I can think of at the top of my head is people would play this as a "lolstealthgank". Theoretically you could pop an AP pot in between and go back to stealth. Stealth groups in DAOC were beyond annoying and you could potentially do that here too if it was changed.

[Jaycub]

Trying to stealth away from anything chasing you, even a tank spamming axe toss is near impossible unless the environment allows you to LoS, and even then you are at the mercy of AoE because they know where you likely are.

Stealth in this game is very weak, and has plenty of counter play compared to most games that have stealth mechanics. Not saying that is a bad thing because of reasons you have stated above that it can be abused, but i feel like it could definitely use some love in this game. Especially considering the WH/WE are denied access to things like charge because they have it.

[Renork]

give this man a cookie :>

[vorod]

i have been extremely unhappy with how often I get popped out of stealth by AoE compared to live. These changes are welcome although I will be the first to come back and say they're OP if they are.

thanks for giving it some thought. The bullets are never really used, the kisses are a bit just because that's the first one you get but later in the game they aren't used either.

[Jaycub]

I try to explain my position on the stealth CD change a bit better

The WE/WH mechanic is Stealth, Kisses/Bullets, and combos+finishers. Stealth plays an important role, not just because you are invisible. The WE/WH have abilities tied to stealth, that are only usable while in stealth. But these abilities are no exclusive to WH/WE only, they are mirrored on many classes on both sides. But if we were to look at the availability those classes have to use those abilities there is a huge gap.

Mara has 2 of the abilities mirrored, as well as chosen, and probably more I am forgetting. But the theme seems to be these abilities have a 20 sec CD, and no arbitrary conditionals that hinder their use... unless you consider stance switching on mara an inconvenience. So no matter what in 60 seconds these classes can use the ability 4 times, where the WH/WE is lucky to get them off twice.

Now the ability is a bit stronger on WH/WE because it has the AP reduction tied into them as well, but even if that was nerfed in accordance to a CD reduction in stealth the class would over all be much better for it. And in the current meta, endgame no one really cares about AP anyways. I think it is a non factor.

Aside from the abilities tied to it, Stealth is how the WE/WH are supposed to get into the fray, which is a bit of a joke because of how the game is currently setup in competitive play you don't really go anywhere as a WH without guard which really diminishes the use of stealth from a mechanical standpoint and is really just used as a mechanism to use your openers.

There are also a plethora of abilities that can be used to counter play stealth completely, and when you find yourself in a competitive environment (premades and voice communication) that counter play is increased 10 fold and you are easily rooted out, but again... this isn't a big deal because even though you are a "stealth" class getting caught isn't a big deal because you should have guard and you end up playing like any normal MDPS anyways, the only thing lost in that engagement is your openers.

The main reason for the CD reduction is to make the openers more reliable and available for use. That is also why I add the line at the end "Abilities that require stealth are usable for 2 seconds after leaving stealth, using one will put the others on CD as well"

This makes it so in a perfect situation you would be able to in a 60 sec period use them 3 times, comparable to the 4 times of the mirrors on other classes. And you wouldn't have to worry too much about it being ruined by AoE, the 2 sec window given is plenty of time to do something if you are pulled out of stealth, but still isn't so forgiving that it encourages bad play etc...

I can see this making them a bit stronger in certain aspects such as solo ganking in ORvR (get a kill and stealth again after it if the conditions are right), but this is such a needed change to their group play which should be the focus of the game anyways

tl:dr openers are important to the classes and they need to be more reliable, cool down reduction on stealth and a 2 sec grace period help them be that.

[lilsabin]

http://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/ ... =15&t=6412

[Moeroes]

Good points Jaycub. I think Stealth absolutely needs to stop breaking on random AoE. It's bad enough you can be seen through stealth by enemy players but being taken out of it by AoE makes it borderline useless. That's one of my biggest concern with WE/WH right now.