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[Scenarios] Why Idle Hands won't achieve what you want & how to fix it

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Uchoo
Posts: 547

[Scenarios] Why Idle Hands won't achieve what you want & how to fix it

Post#1 » Fri Jul 12, 2024 6:36 pm

To preface this, here's the change that was recently made.

Image

What you are trying to achieve is force players out of the spawn or punish them for not leaving spawn. To help them on the way, they will receive 10 seconds of a 75% Damage Reduction.

THE PROBLEM

Most scenarios will end in a spawn camp, so the players pushing out of spawn have to leave spawn and somehow completely defeat a spawn camping force within 10 seconds or get kicked from the scenario and get Quitter!.

One of two things will happen: The player will leave spawn, likely kill no one or a small skirmish occurs, the final result is that they will die and be back in spawn after 10 seconds. This player is now even more frustrated. OR the player will simply get kicked from the scenario, and stop queueing, maybe even log off because they now have Quitter.

This player is more than likely not having fun or any sort of enjoyment from running out of spawn, living for 10 seconds (not even enough time for a slayer to get Rage) then dying. After this, they're then kicked from the scenario with an implied message of "You're not welcome here if you don't run out of spawn and die."

We're trying to force player behavior rather than adapt. So how do we fix this? How do we fix low morale players in spawn while not simply forcing them to run in and die?

SOLUTION

Scenario spawn areas will now have a buff to similar to RvR Warcamps where players receive x% reduced damage and deal x% more damage.

Let's spitball and say 50% DR and 30% more damage. Between this, safe flanks, and cannons in the warcamp, the spawn is now a safe zone and while organized groups will likely still camp it, there's a very good chance that with these effects in place, a spawn camped force can get a kill or 2 and break the spawn camp, pushing the fight back into objectives. Players will very likely adapt and learn that they can push their limits while within this area and the ebb and flow of battle begins once again. This isn't even a hypothetical fix because the warcamp buff is already in the game, and this already happens.

I think another good add would be to force respawns in waves while in Scenarios, at least in the ones with Barriers.

CONSIDERATIONS

I was told that a large reason this change was made is because of premades who don't leave spawn. My method also solves this while encouraging them to fight out of a bad situation instead of punishing them. This is a game after all and players are here for fun & those dopamine hits. Sometimes premades load into a scenario that is ongoing and are already facing a spawn camp situation vs an enemy premade that already has morale built up, etc. I personally don't blame groups who don't want to push into such a severe disadvantage. That's a major flaw in game design that is again, mostly corrected by this proposal.

Of course, some players simply stay at the borders of their spawn to keep the buff and refuse to push out. This is overall unlikely (again, precedent set in RvR) but can happen and maybe something else is needed to help curb that behavior. Either way, they will lose the scenario.

Afterword

Why are less and less players doing Scenarios / 6v6 / City / Instanced Combat?

Simple, in RvR they can pick their fights, choose to engage when they have advantage, avoid disadvantages, etc. There is much, much more player agency and control in those situations compared to Instanced Combat and the modern player does not want to simply run it down & die.

Now there are ways to fix this, which are already set precedents in other PvP games, mainly by adding cooldowns (not tied to morale) to classes that allow them to:
A. Survive without group input for a time
B. Impact a fight enough to swing it

Both of these problems are solved by cooldowns, mainly defensive and/or personal healing cooldowns. Adding Defensives to classes that don't have them solves SO many problems in the game beyond even the scope of this proposal. Players complain about DPS Shaman & Archmage? Those classes have self healing & shields whereas most classes don't. Regen Witch Elf? Why play that when you get a cooldown that lets you stay alive and still be a standard, functioning DPS Class?

Food for thought, Thank You & Best Wishes,

Uchoo
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Repulsion
Posts: 79

Re: [Scenarios] Why Idle Hands won't achieve what you want & how to fix it

Post#2 » Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:14 pm

A simple and meritocratic suggestion that will hopefully make scenarios fun for everyone involved.

This is very much in tune with what scenarios should be - exciting, intense fights where individual skill gets to shine:
and what better tool for this than a "reset" enabler like you propose.

The strong partially wipe, the "weak" get to try again - slaughter ensues, rinse and repeat = MORE actual PvP, MORE juicy RR for everyone.

Here's a bump and a thank you for the things you do for the RoR community, fellow HotS-enjoyer ;)
Last edited by Repulsion on Fri Jul 12, 2024 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aluviya
Posts: 236

Re: [Scenarios] Why Idle Hands won't achieve what you want & how to fix it

Post#3 » Fri Jul 12, 2024 8:18 pm

I feel that the issue of premades not leaving the WC is somewhat taken out of context (not by you, but generally). Let me elaborate a bit further.

It's a myth that people are not leaving the WC just because "they don't feel like it" or they "don't want to play" or whatever reason you wanna name. It's usually because the scenario system often pairs double or triple premade teams against a single premade team on your side.

This would be somewhat addressed with your suggestion. But at this point, it's undeniable that we currently have the ongoing theme in EU primetime where especially veteran premades tend to stack usually on one side to avoid each other. The "Idle Hands" is encouraging that behavior even further and doesn't fix various unresolved issues here:
  • Statistic madness: I don't want to delve too deep here (again) but the connection I've mentioned in various posts here too often can't be denied: It's about how the game evolves around statistics and their public display with a very small population (700 people on a weekend). While I see a positive step in removing one component from the K/D Ratio, it still doesn't entirely solve the issue that people can still see who killed whom and could potentially use the dataoutput to write a new overview showing all details. I generally wonder why we have this feature - while I see some light aspect to it it's also casting a big shade
  • Fight the unfightable: Small scale PvP is extremely imbalanced at the moment. Now imagine having to fight as one premade against two or three premades, where even fighting one premade is already a difficult task with targets dying through guard with people being tunneled in Champion Challenge. The approach of Idle Hands seems more punitive than encouraging - So I would love to ask every1 here involved, where is the incentive to try? The whole point of joining a scenario is to fight in a battle that you can't win or just quit or hope for the mostly solo paired people to sustain the other 2 premades? (And yes, this is a double-edged sword for both sides—PUGS and Premades).

    But overall, I feel that your suggestion is already far superior to the current design of Idle Hands.
Last edited by Aluviya on Fri Jul 12, 2024 9:57 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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bw10
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Re: [Scenarios] Why Idle Hands won't achieve what you want & how to fix it

Post#4 » Fri Jul 12, 2024 8:34 pm

in most cases the losing side wouldnt make a come back even with 20 seconds of -90% dmg. this change is just going to make people quene (even) less

Dajciekrwi
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Re: [Scenarios] Why Idle Hands won't achieve what you want & how to fix it

Post#5 » Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:09 pm

Or maybe we should go back to last day on Age of Reckoning??? Ror is really better game then AOR?

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Sever1n
Posts: 347

Re: [Scenarios] Why Idle Hands won't achieve what you want & how to fix it

Post#6 » Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:16 pm

I would praise devs if they even fix que by not poping sc without zero healers. Usually sc so ubalanced that people stay afk in spawn, coz no hope for win. This change just punish them for refusing participate in mass cyber suicide. Also theres a ton of people who dont play even at 20% and straigth up int. They suck all fun from battle and making scenarios just boring waste of time especially when theres a lot such people in que. Add to this fullsov double prems queing in unison ruining any fun every event for those who strugle find a group. Sc should be reworked long time ago, and they depresed and pushed away from game a ton of people, especialy new greengeared 40s.

Make balanced que with atleast 1 tank and 1heal for grp.
Make mm so people who do they best play against same people, istead participating in clownshows.
Make event sc for solos, and make competitive game mode for sov prems. Suporting nooblording and punishing soloplayers is just wrong, but its what was hapening for years.
Few years ago theres was step in right direction, ques become little longer but atleast playable, but then ton of lies on forum from people who enjoyed and abused situation pushed devs to revert it almost immediately. Tnx to that mistake, only people who have fun in sc geared groups in discord that hunt pugs like rabbits, for solo players thats just pain and suffering mostly.
I have zero satisfaction of 500 0 and 0 500 games, true fun is only against even foes. Sadly but such situation hapens maybe in 1-2 from 50 sc.
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Repulsion
Posts: 79

Re: [Scenarios] Why Idle Hands won't achieve what you want & how to fix it

Post#7 » Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:27 pm

bw10 wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 8:34 pm in most cases the losing side wouldnt make a come back even with 20 seconds of -90% dmg. this change is just going to make people quene (even) less
50% damage reduction + 30% more damage done is nothing to scoff at.

Even the most carried, undergeared players will be having an impact with said buffs.

And noone's arguing that this will result in a proper comeback in a scenario of pepega PUGs vs sov premade, but a couple of kills on high RR players means that at least your time wasn't completely wasted.
Anyway, I choose not to be a doomer because this sounds like a very good change.

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Uchoo
Posts: 547

Re: [Scenarios] Why Idle Hands won't achieve what you want & how to fix it

Post#8 » Fri Jul 12, 2024 11:56 pm

Just to clarify, there are indeed scenario matchmaking issues, which are being addressed in a separate thread here: viewtopic.php?t=52763

Thoughts about lack of healers, double premades, etc should go there, I'm sure Hazmy would love to hear the feedback.
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Speedyluck
Posts: 104

Re: [Scenarios] Why Idle Hands won't achieve what you want & how to fix it

Post#9 » Sat Jul 13, 2024 2:09 am

I was told that a large reason this change was made is because of premades who don't leave spawn.

if thats the case it doesnt fix anything, they will always find a hiding spot somewhere.

Allonairre
Posts: 30

Re: [Scenarios] Why Idle Hands won't achieve what you want & how to fix it

Post#10 » Sat Jul 13, 2024 2:15 am

This seems like a good suggestion.

Not sure if it would fix the problem but if I gave a crap about K/D, right now solo q’ing event SCs is pretty rough. Not that I have ever intentionally afk’d in WC while actually playing game. Sometimes you have too when pugging because **** happens and that’s why you are pugging not in pre-made.

Anyway good luck with this, getting people out of warcamp is important in both SCs and RvR but not sure that a 90 second and you’re done is the right way to go.

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