Simple solution to dismal ratio between XP and RR in midtier SCs.

[lolwut]

People were whining about XP scroll twinks in midtier, and XP scrolls were removed as a result. It was a bad solution, because now anyone who can't stand doing RvR on anything below RR58 is doomed to leave midtier as a 40/43 punching bag.

Better solution would be to put an upper rank limit to XP scroll usability. Make it usable between CR16 and CR36, and this will solve both issues.

[Hazmy]

I am not sure limiting CR between 16 and 36 for scrolls would solve the twinking, since you can very much do that still in that bracket, but there's been lots of feedback regarding the bad XP <-> RR Ratio in Scenarios recently.

[gisborne]

I'm not sure how getting one tier higher gear is going to help that much in RvR. You'll be just as much a punching bag at rr58 as at rr45.

[georgehabadasher]

I think a better, though more difficult, approach would be to adjust how the bolster works, so twinks wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Slightly off-topic, but this is another example of a general problem with the way RoR's dev team approaches problems by addressing symptoms instead of causes. For example, the ICD on procs was removed with the ability rework back in December. Instead of just reverting that change, they have done tons of small adjustments to classes which overperform with procs, which has had significant and unexpected consequences.

Spoiler:

Patch Notes 03/05/2024

Proc Changes

To allow for better understanding of game mechanics we aim to have all procs function the same. Last patch was a first step, but now we tackle a couple of weird exceptions.

From now, all damage procs can no longer crit or proc other procs. This affects the following procs:

Slayer - Retribution
Sword Master - Wall of Darting Steel
White Lion - Hunter’s Strike
Black Orc - ‘Ave Another One
Black Orc - Can’t Hit Me!
Choppa - Bring It On

Last patch damage procs were changed to no longer be affected by damage increasers. While this was a very necessary change to some procs, there is also a group of procs that were already weak before this change. With the following adjustments we aim to make these tactics and abilities more viable and in some cases give some compensation for the previous change.

To allow for better balancing certain procs now scale the player's Damage Bonus (DB).
The following numbers are based on maxed out Mastery Tree values!


Patch Notes 11/03/2024
- Damage bonus abilities/tactics/buffs/class mechanics will no longer enhance the damage output of procs.

Damage procs are defined as tactics and buffs that activate additional damage through another ability or auto-attack. For example prayers, covenants, Flames of Rhuin, Frozen Touch etc

These adjustments are the first step in our plan to refine proc damage. The aim is to reduce the overall damage output from procs and create a more level playing field. This ensures that a damage proc will deliver the same damage value across different scenarios, whether it's triggered by a White Lion using the Loner tactic or a Witch Hunter.

Patch Notes 03/05/2024
MDPS - Jagged Edge - from 3 x 202 to 3 x (149 + 0.5 x DB) damage
High Elves - Centuries of Training - from 3 x 84 damage to 3 x 101 damage (fixed tooltip to “with direct damage”)
Chaos - Backlash - from 5 x 50 damage to 5 x 74 damage and now procs when you are being attacked, like tooltip says, instead of when taking damage.
Bright Wizard - Lingering Fires - from 5 x (50 + 0.45 x DB) to 5 x (75 + 0.45 x DB) damage
Bright Wizard - Playing With Fire - from 375 to 500 damage
Knight of the Blazing Sun - Biting Blade - from 5 x 70 to 5 x (60 + 0.45 x DB) damage
Warrior Priest - Guilty Soul - from 4 x (150 + 1.0 x DB) to 4 x (175 + 1.0 x DB) damage
Witch Hunter - Blessed Bullets - from (337 + 1.5 x WDPS) to (375 + 1.5 x WDPS) damage
Witch Hunter - Fanatical Zeal - from 262 to 352 damage
Engineer - Tangling Wire - from 6 x 41 to 6 x (44 + 0.25 x DB) damage
Engineer - Hollow Points - from 5 x (81 + 0.45 x DB) to 5 x (90 + 0.5 x DB) damage
Archmage - Dispel Magic - from 225 to 247 damage
Sword Master - Potent Enchantments - from 4 x 135 to 4 x (88 + 0.35 x DB) damage
Sword Master - Wall of Darting Steel - from 150 to 187 damage
Chosen - Tainted Wound - from 337 to 498 damage
Magus - Infernal Pain - from 3 x (82 + 0.75 x DB) to 3 x (99 + 0.75 x DB) damage. Additionally changed to deal Spirit damage.
Marauder - Gift of Savagery - from 5 x 168 to 5 x (81 + 0.45 x DB) damage
Marauder - Touch of Rot - from 187 to 352 damage
Marauder - Touch of Instability - from 348 to 390 damage
Zealot - Waves of Chaos - from 150 to (150 + 0.75 x DB) damage
Black Orc - Loudmouth - from 225 to (172 + 0.5 x DB) damage
Shaman - Mork’s Touch - from 225 to 250 damage
Disciple of Khaine - Khaine’s Imbuement - from 3 x 151 to 3 x (151 + 0.5 x DB) damage
Sorcerer - Shades of Death - from 150 to 200 damage
Witch Elf - Kisses - from (150 + 1.5 x WDPS) to (180 + 1.5 x WDPS) damage
Witch Elf - Witchbrew - from 450 to (224 + 1.5 x DB) damage
Witch Elf - Vehement Blades - from 187 to 277 damage
Witch Elf - Treacherous Assault - from 262 to 352 damage

Patch Notes 21/06/2024
Bright Wizard
- Ruin and Destruction - Radius reduced from 30 to 25 ft.
- Crown of Fire - Proc chance reduced from 45% to 40%.
Group proc. damage is still not where we'd like it to be, so we are reducing Crown of Fire proc chance to 40%, along with other changes in this patch.

Warrior Priest
- Prayer of Righteousness - Damage reduced from 225 to 204 (10% reduction).
- Divine Justice - Damage reduced from 375 to 320 (15% reduction).
Group proc. damage is still not where we'd like it to be, so we are reducing their damage, along with other changes in this patch.

Disciple of Khaine
- Covenant of Celerity - Damage reduced from 187 to 168 (10% reduction).
- Bloodthirst - Damage reduced from 337 to 286 (15% reduction).
Group proc. damage is still not where we'd like it to be, so we are reducing their damage, along with other changes in this patch.

Sorcerer
- Frozen Fury - Proc chance reduced from 45% to 40%.
Group proc. damage is still not where we'd like it to be, so we are reducing Frozen Fury proc. chance to 40%, along with other changes in this patch.

Slayer
- Inevitable Doom: CD increased to 15s.
- Retribution: Removed the damage every second (keeps the reflect damage).
- Accuracy: Now additionally reduces CD of Inevitable Doom to 5 seconds and Retribution now deals ( 180 + 1.0 x DB + 1.5 x WDPS ) damage every second. Also now reduces your Auto Attack damage by 20%.
Choppa, and Slayer especially have been dominating in small-scale PvP. The changes in this patch are aimed at reducing their strength, particularly their Area of Effect damage, in their small scale builds. As their small-scale and large-scale builds are nearly identical, that was hard to do without touching their large-scale builds. We know this isn’t the most elegant change at the moment. That is why we aim for a larger rework on the Choppa and Slayer when we arrive at the Damage Career phase of our roadmap in the future.

Choppa
- Furious Stompin': CD increased to 30s.
- Bring It On: Removed the damage every second without Extra Choppin (keeps the reflect damage).
- Extra Choppin': Now additionally reduces the CD of Furious Stompin' to 20s and Bring It On now deals ( 180 + 1.0 x DB + 1.5 x WDPS ) damage every second. Also now reduces your Auto Attack damage by 20%.
Choppa, and Slayer especially have been dominating in small-scale PvP. The changes in this patch are aimed at reducing their strength, particularly their Area of Effect damage, in their small scale builds. As their small-scale and large-scale builds are nearly identical, that was hard to do without touching their large-scale builds. We know this isn’t the most elegant change at the moment. That is why we aim for a larger rework on the Choppa and Slayer when we arrive at the Damage Career phase of our roadmap in the future.

Marauder
- Wrecking Ball - Changed from 7 x (184 + 0.22 x DB + 0.75 x WDPS) to 4 x (322 + 0.38 x DB + 1.3 x WDPS). Total damage remains the same.
- Mouth of Tzeentch - Cooldown increased to 15 seconds.
To keep group proc. damage in control, we are reducing the amount of hits Wrecking Ball does within its channel, while keeping its total damage the same.
Area interrupts have had their cooldowns increased, to reduce interrupt spamming and make them a more tactical choice when they are truly needed.

White Lion
- Whirling Axe - Changed from 7 x (184 + 0.22 x DB + 0.75 x WDPS) to 4 x (322 + 0.38 x DB + 1.3 x WDPS). Total damage remains the same.
- Echoing Roar - Cooldown increased to 15 seconds.
To keep group proc. damage in control, we are reducing the amount of hits Whirling Axe does within its channel, while keeping its total damage the same.
Area interrupts have had their cooldowns increased, to reduce interrupt spamming and make them a more tactical choice when they are truly needed.

[Panzer80]

Why can't people just leech in RvR for 100 hours like the rest of us?

[HammerGuy]

I think a better, though more difficult, approach would be to adjust how the bolster works, so twinks wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Slightly off-topic, but this is another example of a general problem with the way RoR's dev team approaches problems by addressing symptoms instead of causes. For example, the ICD on procs was removed with the ability rework back in December. Instead of just reverting that change, they have done tons of small adjustments to classes which overperform with procs, which has had significant and unexpected consequences.

Spoiler:

Patch Notes 03/05/2024

Proc Changes

To allow for better understanding of game mechanics we aim to have all procs function the same. Last patch was a first step, but now we tackle a couple of weird exceptions.

From now, all damage procs can no longer crit or proc other procs. This affects the following procs:

Slayer - Retribution
Sword Master - Wall of Darting Steel
White Lion - Hunter’s Strike
Black Orc - ‘Ave Another One
Black Orc - Can’t Hit Me!
Choppa - Bring It On

Last patch damage procs were changed to no longer be affected by damage increasers. While this was a very necessary change to some procs, there is also a group of procs that were already weak before this change. With the following adjustments we aim to make these tactics and abilities more viable and in some cases give some compensation for the previous change.

To allow for better balancing certain procs now scale the player's Damage Bonus (DB).
The following numbers are based on maxed out Mastery Tree values!


Patch Notes 11/03/2024
- Damage bonus abilities/tactics/buffs/class mechanics will no longer enhance the damage output of procs.

Damage procs are defined as tactics and buffs that activate additional damage through another ability or auto-attack. For example prayers, covenants, Flames of Rhuin, Frozen Touch etc

These adjustments are the first step in our plan to refine proc damage. The aim is to reduce the overall damage output from procs and create a more level playing field. This ensures that a damage proc will deliver the same damage value across different scenarios, whether it's triggered by a White Lion using the Loner tactic or a Witch Hunter.

Patch Notes 03/05/2024
MDPS - Jagged Edge - from 3 x 202 to 3 x (149 + 0.5 x DB) damage
High Elves - Centuries of Training - from 3 x 84 damage to 3 x 101 damage (fixed tooltip to “with direct damage”)
Chaos - Backlash - from 5 x 50 damage to 5 x 74 damage and now procs when you are being attacked, like tooltip says, instead of when taking damage.
Bright Wizard - Lingering Fires - from 5 x (50 + 0.45 x DB) to 5 x (75 + 0.45 x DB) damage
Bright Wizard - Playing With Fire - from 375 to 500 damage
Knight of the Blazing Sun - Biting Blade - from 5 x 70 to 5 x (60 + 0.45 x DB) damage
Warrior Priest - Guilty Soul - from 4 x (150 + 1.0 x DB) to 4 x (175 + 1.0 x DB) damage
Witch Hunter - Blessed Bullets - from (337 + 1.5 x WDPS) to (375 + 1.5 x WDPS) damage
Witch Hunter - Fanatical Zeal - from 262 to 352 damage
Engineer - Tangling Wire - from 6 x 41 to 6 x (44 + 0.25 x DB) damage
Engineer - Hollow Points - from 5 x (81 + 0.45 x DB) to 5 x (90 + 0.5 x DB) damage
Archmage - Dispel Magic - from 225 to 247 damage
Sword Master - Potent Enchantments - from 4 x 135 to 4 x (88 + 0.35 x DB) damage
Sword Master - Wall of Darting Steel - from 150 to 187 damage
Chosen - Tainted Wound - from 337 to 498 damage
Magus - Infernal Pain - from 3 x (82 + 0.75 x DB) to 3 x (99 + 0.75 x DB) damage. Additionally changed to deal Spirit damage.
Marauder - Gift of Savagery - from 5 x 168 to 5 x (81 + 0.45 x DB) damage
Marauder - Touch of Rot - from 187 to 352 damage
Marauder - Touch of Instability - from 348 to 390 damage
Zealot - Waves of Chaos - from 150 to (150 + 0.75 x DB) damage
Black Orc - Loudmouth - from 225 to (172 + 0.5 x DB) damage
Shaman - Mork’s Touch - from 225 to 250 damage
Disciple of Khaine - Khaine’s Imbuement - from 3 x 151 to 3 x (151 + 0.5 x DB) damage
Sorcerer - Shades of Death - from 150 to 200 damage
Witch Elf - Kisses - from (150 + 1.5 x WDPS) to (180 + 1.5 x WDPS) damage
Witch Elf - Witchbrew - from 450 to (224 + 1.5 x DB) damage
Witch Elf - Vehement Blades - from 187 to 277 damage
Witch Elf - Treacherous Assault - from 262 to 352 damage

Patch Notes 21/06/2024
Bright Wizard
- Ruin and Destruction - Radius reduced from 30 to 25 ft.
- Crown of Fire - Proc chance reduced from 45% to 40%.
Group proc. damage is still not where we'd like it to be, so we are reducing Crown of Fire proc chance to 40%, along with other changes in this patch.

Warrior Priest
- Prayer of Righteousness - Damage reduced from 225 to 204 (10% reduction).
- Divine Justice - Damage reduced from 375 to 320 (15% reduction).
Group proc. damage is still not where we'd like it to be, so we are reducing their damage, along with other changes in this patch.

Disciple of Khaine
- Covenant of Celerity - Damage reduced from 187 to 168 (10% reduction).
- Bloodthirst - Damage reduced from 337 to 286 (15% reduction).
Group proc. damage is still not where we'd like it to be, so we are reducing their damage, along with other changes in this patch.

Sorcerer
- Frozen Fury - Proc chance reduced from 45% to 40%.
Group proc. damage is still not where we'd like it to be, so we are reducing Frozen Fury proc. chance to 40%, along with other changes in this patch.

Slayer
- Inevitable Doom: CD increased to 15s.
- Retribution: Removed the damage every second (keeps the reflect damage).
- Accuracy: Now additionally reduces CD of Inevitable Doom to 5 seconds and Retribution now deals ( 180 + 1.0 x DB + 1.5 x WDPS ) damage every second. Also now reduces your Auto Attack damage by 20%.
Choppa, and Slayer especially have been dominating in small-scale PvP. The changes in this patch are aimed at reducing their strength, particularly their Area of Effect damage, in their small scale builds. As their small-scale and large-scale builds are nearly identical, that was hard to do without touching their large-scale builds. We know this isn’t the most elegant change at the moment. That is why we aim for a larger rework on the Choppa and Slayer when we arrive at the Damage Career phase of our roadmap in the future.

Choppa
- Furious Stompin': CD increased to 30s.
- Bring It On: Removed the damage every second without Extra Choppin (keeps the reflect damage).
- Extra Choppin': Now additionally reduces the CD of Furious Stompin' to 20s and Bring It On now deals ( 180 + 1.0 x DB + 1.5 x WDPS ) damage every second. Also now reduces your Auto Attack damage by 20%.
Choppa, and Slayer especially have been dominating in small-scale PvP. The changes in this patch are aimed at reducing their strength, particularly their Area of Effect damage, in their small scale builds. As their small-scale and large-scale builds are nearly identical, that was hard to do without touching their large-scale builds. We know this isn’t the most elegant change at the moment. That is why we aim for a larger rework on the Choppa and Slayer when we arrive at the Damage Career phase of our roadmap in the future.

Marauder
- Wrecking Ball - Changed from 7 x (184 + 0.22 x DB + 0.75 x WDPS) to 4 x (322 + 0.38 x DB + 1.3 x WDPS). Total damage remains the same.
- Mouth of Tzeentch - Cooldown increased to 15 seconds.
To keep group proc. damage in control, we are reducing the amount of hits Wrecking Ball does within its channel, while keeping its total damage the same.
Area interrupts have had their cooldowns increased, to reduce interrupt spamming and make them a more tactical choice when they are truly needed.

White Lion
- Whirling Axe - Changed from 7 x (184 + 0.22 x DB + 0.75 x WDPS) to 4 x (322 + 0.38 x DB + 1.3 x WDPS). Total damage remains the same.
- Echoing Roar - Cooldown increased to 15 seconds.
To keep group proc. damage in control, we are reducing the amount of hits Whirling Axe does within its channel, while keeping its total damage the same.
Area interrupts have had their cooldowns increased, to reduce interrupt spamming and make them a more tactical choice when they are truly needed.

As an aside, why remove the ICD for procs but not tactics like Loudmouth (Black Orc) or abilities like Bane Shield (Chosen)? Those tactics and abilities are absolutely pitiful, serving as nothing more than useless distractions.

To be back on topic, reduce the experience gained in scenarios or boost the renown gained.

[georgehabadasher]

I think it was an unintended side-effect of recoding the ability system. For a while there, punts weren't giving immunities, guard wasn't working properly. It was a massive, impressive, overhaul.

[lolwut]

I am not sure limiting CR between 16 and 36 for scrolls would solve the twinking, since you can very much do that still in that bracket, but there's been lots of feedback regarding the bad XP <-> RR Ratio in Scenarios recently.

I personally think "midtier twinking" is a non-issue to begin with. It's a skill check, if anything, and if people fail that, they might as well quit: what awaits them in T4 is much, much, much worse.

I'm not sure how getting one tier higher gear is going to help that much in RvR. You'll be just as much a punching bag at rr58 as at rr45.

Nonsense. Vanq is where classes start becoming functional in T4, with limited exceptions.

[bw10]

yeah i guess my slayer twink with gutslime weapons and tok unlock jewerly killing midtier healers in two globals was a failed skillcheck on their part. no wonder devs dont waste their time reading these forums and just do their thing

[tazdingo]

yeah i guess my slayer twink with gutslime weapons and tok unlock jewerly killing midtier healers in two globals was a failed skillcheck on their part. no wonder devs dont waste their time reading these forums and just do their thing

allowing a slayer to reach you as a healer is a literal skillcheck