[DoK] DPS spec feedback and place in meta after patch

[Rockalypse]

I assume that Belladona's thread was closed, not because topic should not be discussed but as it was giving vibe of whine and was not named in accordance with rules. Here I ask everyone interested to give their input on DPS tree after rework, stronger\weaker sides of it compared to prepatch state to give Devs more information to work with.
Down bellow I list my own opinion and you can find already posted in previous thread opinions of others under spoilers.

I can speak only of DPS tree of DoK (torture) as I have not yet tried shield spec.
I like the concept of changes and on paper it seems DoKs life would be better. Love that you addressed the armour pen problem, good that it was done!
Now to the problems I saw so far, before patch DPS DoK was able to put medium but constant amount of damage, as there were no burst, but abilities that gave sustain. 15pt ability gave enough maneuverability to reach low armoured backline to capitalize onmentioned sustain skills, as they scale with damage.
After patch we have:

• little to no ability to counter kitting (with 15pt ability taken - niether covenant nor melee slow will help you if you are not lucky and to survive until m2 is a miracle);

• self sustaining was cut significantly due to lack of selfheal (new skill with 100% convertion is viable only on squishes which are able to kite you);

• no burst was added;

• squishiness is still there;

• you can now buff your armor pen.

Overall.
Armorpenbuff is good, but it does not give much possibilities to use DoKs kit, kitting problems aside, If prepatch you met two tanks duo with tank-dok, you were not able to kill them due to lack of armor pen, now you cant kill them either but you will inevitably drop down as you have little to no lifetaps against high armoured targets.
Lack of burst, CC and overall squishiness, which is not compensated by high sustain anymore, puts DPS DoK behind full DPS classes, which encourages to look for bigger group set up to have all mentioned abilities and heal with you, what makes DPS DoK desired in such group is yet to be determined, I am not sure that healdebuff makes up for all the things lacking.

roadkillrobin

Spoiler:

Rend Soul/Divine Assault healing scales extremly high of dps increase. 1dps = 2,5hps. So when cutting off 35ish dps by using sheild instead of 2hander/dual weild you gonna lose 122ish hps base healing to.
It's pretty easy to sort alot of things with the 3 weapon setups for DoK and WP.
Now you're able to implement and seperate tactics from being exploited in specs were they shouldn't be used. On block procs for Sacrifice boosts, melee crit boosts for Torture and heal crits boost procs for Dark Rites.
An example of this could be, "On block, your next direct or melee heal heals for 100% more".
This is imo also a better sollution then locking TE and SR to sheild wielding as those skills are really important for both Dark Rite and Torture builds. The old versions where cut out of the game for a reason.

adamthelc

Spoiler:

There are 2 different problems someone could have with the changes. Either they dont like the idea at all, or they dont think it's being implemented effectively.
The most effective way to give feedback would be to make it very clear which one it is you are talking about. Muddling the two together just makes it sound like you are complaining about anything and everything. Complaining is going to be less effective than giving real feedback unless your purpose is just to vent.
Personally I like the idea, haven't had much of a chance to try it. However it would really surprise me if they made a change like this and it was perfect right away.
This is just my opinion, but I think if you have a problem with the current state you should be very clear about whether you dont like the defined roles in general or you dont think it's working like it should.

Unstoppable1776

Spoiler:

Requested changes.
1. Remove DW/shield requirements. If people want to have block running a shield should be enough. The current system doesn't allow variety. Also if you want people to dps heal, shouldn't they have access to the reduce armor pen so they can dps heal more?
2. It seems you want consume essence to be the main torture heal so put it in the torture tree.
3. Add a default heal amount on it like it's counter part. The 10ft vs 100 ft should already be a set amount of difference between the two.
4. Bring back the snare ability. I recommend putting it in both the torture and sacrifice tree. I think the sacrifice should be more of apply to ally (since it's a support role) while the torture is only to self.

Luuca

Spoiler:

I have not dual wielded in the new DoK set up, so Belladona will be much better at addressing the challenges in that build; however, I would like to point out that this is a first pass at this. 3 unique builds that can be tuned to perform individually. I think the most constructive thing we can do is look at the 3 builds individually and assess what each build needs to be more playable/sustainable and make rational suggestions on how we can tweak the abilities, healing, and damage to level off the class.
IMO it's too soon to label it a "total fail". If you understand the issues around the hybrid heals vs dps power struggle, you should be able to see the benefit of at least STARTING with a 3 build system and adjusting each one from there.

Bozzax

Spoiler:

Ppl miss the point
Now dps doks/wp are just a ”poor mans” choppa/mrd/sl/wl.
Before change it was a fun to play unique class with lots of odd builds for roam, small scale and even wb (bl heal).
E: melee heals fails per design when kiting, being kited, when outnumbered or sieging. Low wounds means you are fckd by morale drops. So it is a fail concept in RvR.

If I forgot someone - feel free to post what I have missed.

[peterthepan3]

DPS DOK damage is actually increased with this patch. You can do more than sufficient levels of damage to justify a spot in a group (don't even mention the heal debuff).

Mobility issues are a thing, it's true, but even before charge was implemented, DPS DOK was still a viable addition to a group. Some form of snare removal could be on the agenda, but the DPS DOK/WP need to maintain some weakness - and that weakness has (traditionally) been in the form of mobility issues.

Divine Strike/CE are open to some tinkering, if necessary. Main reason for their inclusion was to help the DPS specs out a bit - while not offering overly-good group heals (TE/SR). If that isn't the case right now, it can be looked at, for sure.

All feedback is being taken seriously, so do keep it coming (in a productive, non-whiney manner).

[Rockalypse]

DPS DOK damage is actually increased with this patch. You can do more than sufficient levels of damage to justify a spot in a group (don't even mention the heal debuff).

Mobility issues are a thing, it's true, but even before charge was implemented, DPS DOK was still a viable addition to a group. Some form of snare removal could be on the agenda, but the DPS DOK/WP need to maintain some weakness - and that weakness has (traditionally) been in the form of mobility issues.

Divine Strike/CE are open to some tinkering, if necessary. Main reason for their inclusion was to help the DPS specs out a bit - while not offering overly-good group heals (TE/SR). If that isn't the case right now, it can be looked at, for sure.

All feedback is being taken seriously, so do keep it coming (in a productive, non-whiney manner).

Before charge was added DPS DoK had a little bigger kit on him to use
Main objection to thing said I have is this - as damage feels increased you still deal less in the end, due to DPS DoK's self sustain is limited to doublepot and m2 (until you reach something squishy), so your presence on the field ends far faster than before.
About Divine Strike/CE one of solutions could be limiting heal only to self while adding some constant number (lower than on transfer essence) of heal per hit.

[Kurama]

I havent tested it yet but, is solo PVE DoK still viable?

[Rockalypse]

Yes, with slight damage buff and CE in place pve is same if not easier than before.

[Kurama]

Sounds good ty

[DanielWinner]

I think I will post it here too

Just a little suggestion:
I think, it would be fair to give those classes a skill based on the shield. The main part of it should be related to healing: for example, “You heal your allies for X health every time you block an enemy attack”.

[Rockalypse]

I think I will post it here too

Just a little suggestion:
I think, it would be fair to give those classes a skill based on the shield. The main part of it should be related to healing: for example, “You heal your allies for X health every time you block an enemy attack”.

Interesting idea, even as shield is not for DPS spec
The only thing I fear when I hear about "heal on hit" concept and it's variations is that suicide Khainites/Sigmarites will become a thing.
I can see same type of effect for DPS build which will add a bit more sustain - through tactic or not % of physical crit damage could be converted to self-heal.
For example 10-15% will give no more than 100-170 in best conditions and won't pass 70 in real ones. It won't be enough to keep DoK/WP unkillable, but by changing % numbers it will be easy to balance.

[altharion1]

Couple of things that could help the shield melee healing dok/wp

- Make warding strike (and some WP skill) a dot, have it heal your group for damage x +X% every time it ticks. Shield only. think pious restoration but for melee healing.
- Some kind of melee cleanse tactic. So every time you strike your target with a specific ability it cleanses one hex or curse or aliment from your party members. Shield only
- To get around the issue of not being able to heal when there are no melee targets or being kited you could make a tactic or place an added bonus effect on judgement/fist of khaine when using a shield. Making this ability heal for the damage dealt + X%. So say you hit with judgement for 300 damage, it might heal your defensive target for like 600.

[peterthepan3]

Couple of things that could help the shield melee healing dok/wp

- Make warding strike (and some WP skill) a dot, have it heal your group for damage x +X% every time it ticks. Shield only. think pious restoration but for melee healing.
- Some kind of melee cleanse tactic. So every time you strike your target with a specific ability it cleanses one hex or curse or aliment from your party members. Shield only
- To get around the issue of not being able to heal when there are no melee targets or being kited you could make a tactic or place an added bonus effect on judgement/fist of khaine when using a shield. Making this ability heal for the damage dealt + X%. So say you hit with judgement for 300 damage, it might heal your defensive target for like 600.

Good stuff.