ASW Initiative Stacking: Math Edition

[Ramasee]

I'm sure by now that some of you have seen the following screenshot by now on the forums:



There are a few things I want to bring to your attention.
238 initiative debuff is impossible. This means this person intentionally changed gear or dropped a buff in order to get these values. Highest value is 200, 120 from a SM and 80 from the aSW.
Second, the stat doll does not provide accurate information as the initiative formula was changed in this patch: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=26107

So then, how valuable is the tactic wrist slash and its 80 initiative stackable debuff and is it really as OP as everyone tells me?

Glad you asked, let's delve into some math. Old initiative formula was ((350 / Initiative * 10) - Reduced chance to be crit) this is what the statdoll uses; but as I stated above, this was changed by the RoR devs in a patch. After hitting ourselves about a thousand times out in eataine, we determined that they basically gave everyone 35 initiative for free in the formula. So all of the formulas I use on my spreadsheet use this:

IF(Init < 0, 100, (350 / (Init + 35) * 10)) - Reduced chance to be crit

The IF function is just to make sure that debuffs that drop below zero do not create ridiculous results. Alright the first screenshot here just explains what you are actually looking. Each of these are taken from the spreadsheet that I created for my guild.



Now for the rest of these we need to keep in mind a few things. First, the debuff is only 80 on top of the 120 that can be applied to both sides. So when determining the maximum value of the tactic, we need to look how much difference it creates between the 120 debuff marker, and the 200 debuff marker.


This first screenshot is for 123 initiative. Which is lowest base value of any class. The aSW brings 8% additional critical chance if you have no buffs (only because you can't go over 100%!). 60% if you have a zealot buff. 23% if you have a black orc buff.


This one is for 200, which is a more common value for not naked people. 200 initiative is also suicide for pretty much any character regardless of debuffs. The aSW brings 70% additional critical chance if you have no buffs. 20% if you have a zealot buff. 8% if you have a black orc buff.


This one is for 250 initiative. For some classes this is a small talisman/rp investment, but it is considered the go-to number for initiave (for a reas)on. Under this value, The aSW brings 20% additional critical chance if you have no buffs. 10% if you have a zealot buff. 5% if you have a black orc buff.


This one is for 275 initiative, same as the first screenshot, the one given by another person that I posted up top. Lets see what's REALLY going on in comparison.
The aSW brings 13% additional critical chance if you have no buffs. 7% if you have a zealot buff. 4% if you have a black orc buff.


Let's keep going. 300 initiative, some classes get this value without trying, but only a few. The aSW brings 10% additional critical chance if you have no buffs. 6% if you have a zealot buff. 3% if you have a black orc buff.

=====Conclusion=====
Shadow warrior stacking initiave debuff is only exceptionally powerful if you have less than 250 initiative or if you do not have a black orc or zealot.

The assault shadow warrior is a melee dps spec that only has use in small scale engagements due to its limited AoE. So looking at the above data from a 6v6 environment perspective, you will almost always have one of those two classes for the buffs needed to counter it.

[Tesq]

per patchnote at least raw, its not "if" but is always granted a +35 ini POST ALL calcultions, sic simpliciter just add 35.

the best MIN ini value you can have BEFORE the crit % start to scale esponentialy is 130 ( wher it goes from grey to green)

so when you have 130 +200 any sw debuff on top of sm will not matter more than a 5% crit debuff.

so

130 =min require
35= hide for free server side
200 = max debuff

200+130-35= 295 ini

this is the value you must have to ignore sw+sm stack on destru side.

295is the max considering the debuff; sm never put full points in mastery so frmo this you can dish/take out some ini, which mean 10-15 points.

with max debuff value = need 295 ini
with average debuff value = need 280/285 ini

as long you have 280 buff or ubuffed (alredy added the +35 hidden) ini the ASW debuff wont matter much

so real value 280/285
character menu value 245/250

[Ramasee]

per patchnote at least raw, its not "if" but is always granted a +35 ini POST ALL calcultions, sic simpliciter just add 35.
...
sm never put full points in mastery so frmo this you can dish/take out some ini, which mean 10-15 points.
...

The IF function doesn't have anything to do with adding 35 initiative or not. The excel spreadsheet formula is saying, if initiative goes below zero, chance to be critically hit is equal to 100%, else enact formula. This is to keep the formula from messing up and returning negative values.

You are correct that SM usually are sitting at 13 points into khaine. For 114 debuff rather 120. I just wanted to show the maximum benefit under each situation to show the entire picture as best as I could.

[Valfaros]

So lets take the 275 init value. Isn't 13% for the whole group not enough to be OP for a tactic which also debuffs weapon skill and buffs the sw by the same stats. All that for a tactic requiring 0 invenstment has no cooldown whatsoever on a class that now deals considerable damage compared to what it did before when this tactic was there to compensate an quite low dmg aSW.

Then 275 on my dok which has infact 123 init with gear this requires 34 rr points (243+35=278) or roughly 6 tali slots. Sorry but that seems like an overly harsh pay just to be able to face 1 class. It's not like you have to prepare for other classes.

Next up don't include RP/Ze buff it's going to get shattered no need to include it. All this tells me is what most people knew before you have to include a bo in every single group and even then some classes have to invest not just a bit for this.

I agree some classes have it easy to counter this which why I was for generalizing initiative but apparently this takes out some flavor of the game which I find strange for passive stats but so be it.

[ferraz19]

https://imgur.com/a/qT2KemR

I'm sure by now that some of you have seen the following screenshot by now on the forums:



There are a few things I want to bring to your attention.
238 initiative debuff is impossible. This means this person intentionally changed gear or dropped a buff in order to get these values. Highest value is 200, 120 from a SM and 80 from the aSW.
Second, the stat doll does not provide accurate information as the initiative formula was changed in this patch: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=26107

So then, how valuable is the tactic wrist slash and its 80 initiative stackable debuff and is it really as OP as everyone tells me?

Glad you asked, let's delve into some math. Old initiative formula was ((350 / Initiative * 10) - Reduced chance to be crit) this is what the statdoll uses; but as I stated above, this was changed by the RoR devs in a patch. After hitting ourselves about a thousand times out in eataine, we determined that they basically gave everyone 35 initiative for free in the formula. So all of the formulas I use on my spreadsheet use this:

IF(Init < 0, 100, (350 / (Init + 35) * 10)) - Reduced chance to be crit

The IF function is just to make sure that debuffs that drop below zero do not create ridiculous results. Alright the first screenshot here just explains what you are actually looking. Each of these are taken from the spreadsheet that I created for my guild.



Now for the rest of these we need to keep in mind a few things. First, the debuff is only 80 on top of the 120 that can be applied to both sides. So when determining the maximum value of the tactic, we need to look how much difference it creates between the 120 debuff marker, and the 200 debuff marker.


This first screenshot is for 123 initiative. Which is lowest base value of any class. The aSW brings 8% additional critical chance if you have no buffs (only because you can't go over 100%!). 60% if you have a zealot buff. 23% if you have a black orc buff.


This one is for 200, which is a more common value for not naked people. 200 initiative is also suicide for pretty much any character regardless of debuffs. The aSW brings 70% additional critical chance if you have no buffs. 20% if you have a zealot buff. 8% if you have a black orc buff.


This one is for 250 initiative. For some classes this is a small talisman/rp investment, but it is considered the go-to number for initiave (for a reas)on. Under this value, The aSW brings 20% additional critical chance if you have no buffs. 10% if you have a zealot buff. 5% if you have a black orc buff.


This one is for 275 initiative, same as the first screenshot, the one given by another person that I posted up top. Lets see what's REALLY going on in comparison.
The aSW brings 13% additional critical chance if you have no buffs. 7% if you have a zealot buff. 4% if you have a black orc buff.


Let's keep going. 300 initiative, some classes get this value without trying, but only a few. The aSW brings 10% additional critical chance if you have no buffs. 6% if you have a zealot buff. 3% if you have a black orc buff.

=====Conclusion=====
Shadow warrior stacking initiave debuff is only exceptionally powerful if you have less than 250 initiative or if you do not have a black orc or zealot.

The assault shadow warrior is a melee dps spec that only has use in small scale engagements due to its limited AoE. So looking at the above data from a 6v6 environment perspective, you will almost always have one of those two classes for the buffs needed to counter it.

[Tesq]

my only issue with all of this is that destru have to sacrefice 2 tali slot while order 0 , as in live some class construction make 1 realm have easier way to class building than the other one.

per se force ppl to invest in more stats is not bad ,it's also a way to keep in check power creep but why only on 1 realm?

the fact that tactic both buff7debuff is due i think sw being not a melee class to begin with. So lets say was prob designed to fill core weakness class had in design, core prob because anyway is a melee tactic and 2/3 mastery are ranged.

these last 2 things are more internal stuff of class balance , the acces on both realms is more a question of esternal balance.

[Ramasee]

So lets take the 275 init value. Isn't 13% for the whole group not enough to be OP for a tactic which also debuffs weapon skill and buffs the sw by the same stats. All that for a tactic requiring 0 invenstment has no cooldown whatsoever on a class that now deals considerable damage compared to what it did before when this tactic was there to compensate an quite low dmg aSW.

Then 275 on my dok which has infact 123 init with gear this requires 34 rr points (243+35=278) or roughly 6 tali slots. Sorry but that seems like an overly harsh pay just to be able to face 1 class. It's not like you have to prepare for other classes.

Next up don't include RP/Ze buff it's going to get shattered no need to include it. All this tells me is what most people knew before you have to include a bo in every single group and even then some classes have to invest not just a bit for this.

I agree some classes have it easy to counter this which why I was for generalizing initiative but apparently this takes out some flavor of the game which I find strange for passive stats but so be it.

Do I believe wrist slash needs to be toned down? Yes absolutely. But it is because of the duality. Either remove the weapon skill component, or remove the buff component. As for the initiative that 13% becomes a 4% against a BO. Marauders have a 10% flat increase crit chance for the party on a no investment no cooldown ability.

DoKs, WPs, Maras, and KotBS have super low base initiative (123). They are obviously hurt the most by initiative debuffs (although knights and maras have tactics to help) and have to invest the most to compensate. Initiative helps you against all classes, just even moreso against asw. Just like armor helps you against all physical dps, more so against slayers than knights. Disrupt helps you against casters, more so bw than dps am.

Included the rp/zealot buffs just for thoroughness. They do get shattered eventually. Only need a BO in every group that faces an SM/ASW.

I would honestly prefer all initiative buffs/debuff to be changed to flat % chance to be crit increases/decreases. We did try this as a proposal for the wrist slash, got denied.

[lefze]

per patchnote at least raw, its not "if" but is always granted a +35 ini POST ALL calcultions, sic simpliciter just add 35.

the best MIN ini value you can have BEFORE the crit % start to scale esponentialy is 130 ( wher it goes from grey to green)

so when you have 130 +200 any sw debuff on top of sm will not matter more than a 5% crit debuff.

so

130 =min require
35= hide for free server side
200 = max debuff

200+130-35= 295 ini

this is the value you must have to ignore sw+sm stack on destru side.

295is the max considering the debuff; sm never put full points in mastery so frmo this you can dish/take out some ini, which mean 10-15 points.

with max debuff value = need 295 ini
with average debuff value = need 280/285 ini

as long you have 280 buff or ubuffed (alredy added the +35 hidden) ini the ASW debuff wont matter much

so real value 280/285
character menu value 245/250

Why assume you should be able to completely negate the debuff? Optimally SW debuff should always be a minimum 10% debuff on its own like the rest of them, so I have no clue why people are assuming you have to completely negate it to not melt.