[Removed per Author]BG: none shall pass

[Tesq]

PROBLEM:
The skill is inefficent for a 13pt skill and have 1 heavy and simple counter that do not allow it to work

1)can be interrupt: being a 30 sec CD skill channeling being interrupt make it very poor in term of utility if the work is to either be a panic button or a hate builder the interrupt screw all for 30 sec and this is 13pt skill!!

2) no procs: it have no group utility because you can do nothing for 10 sec, now the bg is not a passive buff tank but an active tank and 13 pt skill which create problem in use other of your tools is very bad. Comparing this channeling with bo/sm the first thing you see is that all can be spammed because you could be require do multiple task in few seconds and you need to be able to switch. NSP do not allow this and is very stric and added the fact that BO/SM can proc tactic and stat steal with the dmg returned by the channeling make it quite underperforming. They have spamable channeling and not self buff because their channeling can proc stuff while BG channeling can't and it cannot be spam.

3)comparison as panic button: compared to all other tanks 13 pt skill is really bad as panic button (there was snare on 13pt before the swap so both this and the armor buff could had been a viable panic button but due the currently disposition and rewamp that the armor buff wouldd require i suggest to make more in line none shall pass.
Ye is true that ppl take this skill but this dosen't mean is not inferior to all other panic button in game to let you understand.
I know it's stated that other class being better at X is not a valid reason but a panic button is meaningless if it not work to be a life seaver as all other panic button in game ( ex: a gap closer that work bad as gap closer is a good reason x se to be fix)

4) tough panic button have nothing to do with the utility of a class it can help the class perform that role by remain alive enough so it should be made more viable in my opinion

SOLUTIONS:
-make it self buff (blessing) duration the same , effect the same, ap cost 20
(it will be like vigilance but instead a dmg reduction it will boost the avoidance, the ammount is fair considering the order classes debuff potential it can also be shattered but at least BG can perform it's role even in bad situation where as an active tank would be penalized by being forced to think only to himself and would drop the support to team mates ).
Also block only work from the front so it have some pro and some contr compared to vigilance.

[Gerv]

Moving to Discussions.

Remember to de-bunk the reason of issue and the proposed solutions if you disagree which is;
The Black Guard, while using None Shall Pass, looses the abiliy to perform its role as buffing/debuffing tank and is unable to use its utility.

The solution we are discussing are;
If None Shall Pass should be a) self buff, with the same or similar effect and associated cost
Remember to, if you disagree with the solution, to a) state why, with reasoning it should not be changed or b) propose an alternative with reasoning.

[megadeath]

Spoiler:

1)can be interrupt: being a 30 sec CD skill channeling being interrupt make it very poor in term of utility

That's true for all tanks.

SOLUTIONS:
-make it self buff (blessing) duration the same , effect the same, ap cost 20
(it will be like vigilance but instead a dmg reduction it will boost the avoidance, the ammount is fair considering the order classes debuff potential it can also be shattered but at least BG can perform it's role even in bad situation where as an active tank would be penalized by being forced to think only to himself and would drop the support to team mates ).
Also block only work from the front so it have some pro and some contr compared to vigilance.

This will make it stackable with Hold the Line. BG already has 100%+ disrupt chance with Hold the Line active. Adding 50% block to this is just absurd. The only thing None Shall Pass needs is cooldown removed.

Please explain in which situations stacking with hold the line would be an issue, remembering that pug and random situations are not an issue here and you need to explain why removing the cooldown is the only thing None Shall Pass needs.

Rayray

[Tesq]

1)can be interrupt: being a 30 sec CD skill channeling being interrupt make it very poor in term of utility

That's true for all tanks.

SOLUTIONS:
-make it self buff (blessing) duration the same , effect the same, ap cost 20
(it will be like vigilance but instead a dmg reduction it will boost the avoidance, the ammount is fair considering the order classes debuff potential it can also be shattered but at least BG can perform it's role even in bad situation where as an active tank would be penalized by being forced to think only to himself and would drop the support to team mates ).
Also block only work from the front so it have some pro and some contr compared to vigilance.

This will make it stackable with Hold the Line. BG already has 100%+ disrupt chance with Hold the Line active. Adding 50% block to this is just absurd. The only thing None Shall Pass needs is cooldown removed.

1) What you mean is true ? can you debunk it more

sm/BO channeling have no CD so interrupt do nothing, BG does; so you either make it

-no cd -->but inerrupt
-CD---> but not interruptable

All other tank have passive dmg reductioin skill(IB), buff /self buff; only bg have a channeling with CD,
and not interruptable and 30 sec CD that's overkilling for 13pt panic button

2)every panic button exept BG one stack with hold the line, regardless you can interrupt hold the line
-htl drain your ap and reduces the ap for your debuff
-while hold the line you cannot debuff other ppl because BG is a def tank
-require 13 pt to spec which mean it HAVE to stack due
A) be 13 ot
B) go deeper in mid path such 13 pt = have less point to spec into other mastery
-also even if stack block is useless from behind while things as vigilance work at 360 degree
C) all things you are stated requrie you to spec into it and spec mean loose mastery points and loose utility, turtle tanks have no mean in competitive enviroment

D) even if stack order classesa re full of defense debuff (engi can just debuff on his own a 15% and they stack)

there is no reason to spec it right know

[megadeath]

Spoiler:

1) What you mean is true ? can you debunk it more

sm/BO channeling have no CD so interrupt do nothing, BG does; so you either go

It interrupts the channeling

-no cd -->but inerrupt
-CD---> but not interruptable

Come to think of it cooldown is there, because BG could keep None Shall Pass much longer then other tanks due to Driven by Hate ability. It has a 20 sec cooldown tho.

2)every panic button exept BG one stack with hold the line

So how do you cast 2 channeled abilities at once?

-htl drain your ap and reduces the ap for your debuff
-while hold the line you cannot debuff other ppl because BG is a def tank
-require 13 pt to spec which mean it HAVE to stack due
A) be 13 ot

I didn't understand any of that

there is no reason to spec it right now

BG doesnt really need block anyway

- Respond appropriately or not at all and please explain your reasoning not just "BG doesn't really need block anyway"

[Tesq]

1) What you mean is true ? can you debunk it more

sm/BO channeling have no CD so interrupt do nothing, BG does; so you either go

It interrupts the channeling

NO CD MEAN NO CD, interrupt is uselss... BO/SM just re active the channelign again....... only bg have this problem this is totally false, even if multiple taunt are used it still require multiple taunt to block these classes to use the channeling; here you just need 1. Moreover BO/SM have other def tool which stack their channeling
SM can reach a 75% of parry (with 0 renown speced for it) for exemple and BO have a magic dmg reduction for 20% + other things and all of those of course stack

-no cd -->but inerrupt
-CD---> but not interruptable

Come to think of it cooldown is there, because BG could keep None Shall Pass much longer then other tanks due to Driven by Hate ability. It has a 20 sec cooldown tho.

driven by hate is perfect mirror between IB/BG it have nothing to do with a panic button, the fact that a panic button also requrie ap to run for all his duration is in straight contrast with it's own nature and in straight contrast with BG nature of active tank

2)every panic button exept BG one stack with hold the line

So how do you cast 2 channeled abilities at once?

only BO/SM have channeling as panic button other than BG, all other tank just use the panic button /or debuff the enemy then use hold the line i don't get what's your point here

-htl drain your ap and reduces the ap for your debuff
-while hold the line you cannot debuff other ppl because BG is a def tank
-require 13 pt to spec which mean it HAVE to stack due
A) be 13 ot

I didn't understand any of that

1-channeling mean you cannot do anything else (chosen/kobs) dont have this problem , ib neither; BO/SM can proc their stat steal while channeling for base so only BG have this problem
2-running out out ap prevent you from both dedicate more ap to debuffing skill and either because you are a active tank ( sy wrong word there) and then as a dog that bite his tail youa re forced to lower yoru hate jimping your def for regain ap

there is no reason to spec it right now

BG doesnt really need block anyway

this is has nothing to do with need it or not, the skill have no sense due to how BG is an active tank, use tactics to boost your def remove you chance to take other tactis and also depending from your build--> avoidance on hatred based may be bad.
You cannot either take all offensive and def skill/tactics across mastery and even doing that will make you a turtle tank with no utility.
Also is not like a buff type that cannot be removed, it will be a blessing (same as KOBS) and so shatterable it still have 1 simple counter that tanks can do. So shatter enchantment and 1 taunt will both block bg hold the line and NSP. Tough you will be able to perform active stuff instead be relegated to a channeling. Also BG cannot self boost dodge, disrupt can be ignored by BW in st and in aoe in rvr it just normal that you stay hold the line and you stack your dam panic button.

[megadeath]

Please explain in which situations stacking with hold the line would be an issue, remembering that pug and random situations are not an issue here and you need to explain why removing the cooldown is the only thing None Shall Pass needs.

Rayray

Okay lets see. Lets imagine None Shell Pass works as a buff. At 100 hate with Hold The Line my BG gets 58.3% block, 66.4% parry, 76.7% dodge, 102.1% disrupt.

Also I'm making a point and nobody seems to get it and I'm getting issued warnings on top of that. **** it. I won't even bother with forums anymore.

[Tesq]

ok you need

-2 avoidance tactic
-full hate
-use NSP(and so spend 14 pt in mid mastery + require shield)
-use hold the line (require shield)

->NSP can be shatter
->hold the line interruped

A) hold the line dosen't counter any melee skill which make use not harder counter NSP as shatter enchantement is a melee skill.
B) you remain with 2 only tactic slot open and most of Mastery points spent so what you bring on the table that CH/BO dont?

[Toldavf]

Lets not forget that BG's kd is linked to block and block only. If you buffblock by 50% and any damage is coming your way (If its an actual fight there will be something) then you will insta proc it.

You are comparing it to vigilance when really what you should be comparing your modified version to is shield rush.

50% block is a very high amount to hand out on demand.

[Tesq]

Uhm is true regarding the block but...

A) use the panic button to proc the KD dosen't assure you to proc it you still need to get attack or guard being attcked
B) if even proc you are wasting your panic button 14pt required investiment skill just to unlock the KD (i still call that a very bad KD)
C) i cannot compare it to shield rush because shield rush and soppresion for exemple in the moment they end, or before that, they can be refresh, this one instead imply a 20 sec of time where you have no access to the block so is not base avoidance is a panic button( like vigilance and vigilance is a HARD panic button -> 50% dmg reduction
D) depending also from KD thread this point could turn bad since if it's the mid KD get parry label it would not change much; also there are other exemple of such combo (wh buff his parry by 100% then can use confess and disarm, i get the point it's a 5 sec KD but there are also other requirement such hit and be 90+ hate)


let's say i strongly belive in cross mirror vigilance but the eff is not much important for me it's important that def eff do not interfer with BG debuffing job and it's actually worth as panic button idk if it's block or not (tough SM for exemple is spamable as chosen but give block, kobs is not spamable but give dmg reduction, the mix is bg give block but not spamable and chosen have dmg but a bit more spamable).
If the block is high then the block can be lowered for much you like; remember that it's still requrie 14 to spec it and it need to be worth for his eff or it could give a negative effec ( vigilance have that in fact -25% dmg which is lolable but ehi maybe is just for that is a lolable trade off and so is good ).

NB: Also keep in mind that it also serve for pve purpose and so need to be efficent even there.