A question of DPS viability

[valancian]

Didn't know where to post this kinda thread, general made the most sense i guess, any who.

So Warhammer does something weird for me, i love the play style and look and feel of a lot of the classes in this game. Healers, tanks, and DPS alike. Back when Warhammer was live i mained a Disciple of Khaine, i think i was around LVL 35 when it died. But i remember not knowing it was a healing class, i was younger, forgive my dumbness lol. But it was just my all time favorite class. Warrior priest i also enjoyed. But in the end, they are healers, and i prefer to be a DPS. I've seen a lot of talk about DPS Warrior priests or DPS Knights of the Blazing Sun, and i was wondering. What in your opinions, are actually viable DPS classes, that aren't upfront DPS like Bright Wizard.

On another note, my highest level is 5...i may or may not have made 20 characters to kinda test em all out. So i might not know some things that are even slightly ahead of me level wise.

[blaqwar]

Tanks like SM, IB, BO and BG make decent quasi-melee DPS. Apart from that, a melee Disciple of Khaine or Warrior Priest really would be your best option since on RoR the two careers have been changed to be more in-line with Mythic's vision of the careers. They can either choose to be melee/ranged healing or to be a decent melee DPS with some utility and some healing.

Although right now the changes have been suspended/postponed until they can be better implemented (a way to patch the game is needed and in the works).

If you don't mind a ranged DPS career an Archmage or a Shaman would also be a good choice.

[valancian]

That's actually really cool to know. Can't wait until it's full implemented, i so love the DoK and WP. It's also cool to know the tanks that are decent DPS, as for ranged, ive tried to get into the ranged in his game. I actually quite enjoy the style and idea of Bright Wizard. What i don't enjoy is the fact that in getting my Sorc and BW to lvl 5..i've killed myself more times than i'd care to admit. Sooooo yea lol. But as for Archmage and Shammy. Arch mage is a little too priesty for me, and i've never been a gobbo kinda guy, if im a greenskin, im an ork lol.

[peterthepan3]

Try a Magus if you want a fun rdps with very good solo potential and respectable st and aoe.

[Telen]

What makes a class a true dps not a tank or healer specced dps is burst but you do give up at least some self reliance. WL and SH are great all round dps classes. Having a pet is useful in so many situations. Their mobility is unrivaled either kiting or catching kiters. SH is easier to play due to being rdps but both are imo each realms best solo dps.

[Eathisword]

To answer your question, every healer and tank can be decent ''untrue'' DPS. As far as damage is concerned, I'd rank them like this, 100% being the most damage this archetype can do in terms of burst damage (disregard scenario numbers... a tank running damage aura will do more damage than true dps but won't kill anything, he just pulses 150 damage/3s to everyone for 10 minutes) :

Order tanks : SM (100%) - IB (80%) - knights (65%)
Order healers : AM (100%), - WP (90%) - RP (50%)

Destro tanks : BO (100%) - BG (80%) - chosen (70%)
Destro healers : Dok (100%) - Zealot and shaman (70%)

One thing to bear in mind, imo, is ''denaturing'' a class or playing it hybrid (such as dps tanks, WP, dok, AM) is perhaps the hardest thing to do well in the game.

90%+ of the people that play them, play as if they were straight dps, not using the full potential their class offers by disregarding their mechanic (i.e. dps healer never healing, dps tank never guarding/CCing/challenging). So in many regard, they just play plain bad dps that survive long and would probably do better playing real dps class (as stated, WL is a good choice).

That being out of the way, also keep in mind that the game is really about level 40. WP/dok are really really fun in the lower levels. At 40, I can count on my hands the number of melee dok/WP that survive more than 4-5s in any given fights. The hundreds of other melee WP/dok are just free renown for their enemies. So the potential a class has doesn't equate to the fun you will have. Note also, that finding a decent group as a dps healer is a lot harder than on other classes.

In that regard, 2H/dps tank are much easier to play. And somewhat more fun, imo. They are probably as hard to play to their max potential, but even as a new player, you can have fun because of shear survivability.

Sinceriously,
Vollie the IB, Lenie the WP.

[IndiscreetJewels]

In my time on RoR, I've kind of had the same approach to choosing what to play as you did - only I took it a bit further and started leveling them past T1. So now I have 5 classes in T4 - 2 on Order (WP and Engi in their 30's) and 3 on Destro (BO, Choppa and SH -all lvl 40 and 30-40 RR). I've spent a lot of time doing this and sometimes I think it'd be better spent if I had just spent it on one toon. I sort of did this to see how the different classes play in T4 and choose what I enjoy most then, but I'd say I failed to reach this goal. There are good, bad and sometimes frustrating things about all of the classes I play. I mostly get frustrated with each one of them after some time of playing them...but at least I can switch.

Some lessons learned leveling my toons:

Engineer
I started playing Engi because it sort of appeals me thematically with it's sort of steampunk'ish vibe. I also liked the gameplay of it in earlier Tiers. I felt very impactful in fights I took part in, since I could actually kill people solo, while staying relatively safe. However, some say Engi is a bit OP in earlier tiers, and I'd agree to an extent. In earlier tiers I liked the static gameplay of my spec (there are other ways to play Engi, btw) since I actually could catch people off-guard and kill them outright, but as I leveled up, doing this became increasingly difficult since with no heal debuff, my damage just got outhealed. I suppose with good gear this playstyle is still somewhat viable in T4, but that's for more experienced people to say.


Warrior Priest
WP also appealed to me thematically, but I soon found the gameplay to be quite boring and repetitive. Which is a shame, since who doesn't want to be a 2hander-weilding religious fanatic in heavy armor (well, at least visually), right? I continued to play it, because leveling it was a breeze, since self-sustain isn't an issue. I played WP before the experimental mode and am considering getting it to 40 someday. I have to say though, that playing against WPs is, well, how should I put it...boring? They are not threatening enough to try to prioritize them. If it's melee healing WP - you won't kill it or do damage anyway; if it's melee dps WP - you'd rather CC and focus on something more dangerous, like their rDPS if there are any in sight, since WPs don't really have a good way to catch up to you. I sort of felt the same when playing WP in T3 - I did some damage, but did I do enough to matter or was a nuisance to enemy? Not really. Granted it was before the changes, not sure how it is now. At least, when I play my Choppa, if I do get to someone, I present a real threat to outright solo kill him and people are forced to deal with me.


Choppa
My Choppa is 40 now, but it's RR if a bit on the low side, therefore has only basic Ruin gear and epic quest line weapons. With some defensive gear, it has become somewhat playable solo, at least in SCs. As I put it earlier, if I can catch someone out of position, it will probably die, even more so, if it's a squishy target. I have all the tools for it - heal debuff, soft and hard CC, enough damage, a crappy but gap closer none the less. To an extent, I present a real threat even to healers and tanks. It comes at a price though - I myself am very easily killed (If I screw up? I found that this is not always the case, but admit that it could be a 'git gud' thing.
All in all, though, I find the extremes of Choppa a bit infuriating at times. More often infuriating than satisfying. "You will die a lot" which is what are the first thing that gets told, when someone asks anything about Choppa. It is also said, that Choppas become very dangerous with better gear and even more so when it has some healers and tanks around. Someone who has that gear has to be a judge for that.
From my experience, I'd say that the rare times when stars align and I get some dedicated heals and guard in SCs, if I play well, I feel very impactful and dangerous to enemy group. So Choppa really shines in a group setting. There are some Choppas on this server, who manage very well on their own - Grufrip being one of them, I think.
One more thing to add about Choppa is that it is also very restricting in terms of playstyle, you can't do much about the extremes of the class in terms of speccing differently, at least in my short and painful experience.


Squig Herder
My SH is lvl 40 and highest RR rank toon. I started playing it because I sort of liked the idea of being sneaky little pain in the ass that you can't really do much about (if the SH plays his cards right), but can't really ignore either. And well, this is sort of what I got, even when playing solo.
The playstyle changes somewhat while you level. While in earlier tiers you are a considerable burst damage threat, this become less so in T4. In T4 you spend most of your time controlling enemy rDPS - either with soft CC spells and range reduction or killing them if healers aren't close by. You can't compete with SWs, BWs and Engis burst damage wise, but you can make their life difficult and they can't kill you 1v1 if you play well. You can annoy melees with disarm and healers with silence. You can be a threat to tanks due to armor, and avoidance stat debuff (one being one of your core spells, the other - a tactic).
SH is very versatile in terms of tactic choices, which lets you either have more defensive and kiting options or damage. Further versatility is offered by choice of pets - either AoE damage and survivability//more burst damage//more CC and range.
I think, to an extent, SH at least at the moment also has two viable ways of speccing - one offering more sustained damage, the other - mobility, safety and utility.
I've heard that SH is also a great roamer and ganker in RvR, but haven't perfected the art myself, so can't say much on this.
I expected leveling SH to be a breeze, but it really wasn't so. Maybe I did something wrong, but be warned - you are very squishy, kiting mobs isn't the most time efficient method, at least in my experience.
I've also found SH pet mechanic to be quite clunky. And...yes, WLs and WHs will burst you down, but you have a fair fighting chance, I'd say.
All in all, even with the recent changes to pet damage, SH remains a very versatile and solo friendly class, that sort of delivers on the expected playstyle from thematical perspective.


Black Orc
BO was the first class I leveled to 40 and still play it often. I chose it since, well, ...because BO is the quintessential Greenskin experience. You are the biggest, meanest, greenest, clunkiest mofo on the battlefield, with whom only maybe Choppa can compete in terms of aggression. What's not to like, ey?
Well, in T4, if you choose to play BO as a tank, you don't always feel that way. More like just a big green blob of meat that's only rarely threatening. Playing BO as a tank you are mostly there for utility - AoE snare, punt, KD, silence, various buffs, debuffs, immunities, and, of course, guard. You are less durable than Chosen, and your utility is not readily available, due to nature of BO racial. Your buffs and debuffs are easily missed, since they are quite impressive on paper and numbers wise, but aren't very well communicated visually. All in all, tank BO seems neither here nor there - it doesn't seem to have the best survivability in the game or even on Destro side of things and his utility is somewhat lackluster because of the racial restriction.
Luckily, BO is almost as versatile as SH, in my experience. You can play tank BO. You can play SnB DPS BO, that does moderate damage, but still offers practically the same utility as tank BO. The only trade off is Can't hit me, which can be considered a mostly PvE skill (although, I'd say that's depatable) and ability to have a KD and AoE snare at the same time. You can still off-tank and guard easily with this spec. 2h BO is also considered viable. You basically retain the same utility options as SnB DPS BO, gain some burst, but lose survivability and ability to effectively guard. You don't have a heal debuff, therefore if murdering people outright is what you want, Choppa might be a better choice. You do have a CD increase on 20s cooldown, which, as I've heard annoys healers to no end and doesn't invoke CC immunity.
All in all, I sometimes get the feeling a lot of 'BO' really happens 'behind the scenes'. That is, sometimes you don't feel the impact of your utility spells and buffs and therefore your main contribution to the fight, so it can lead to some frustrations. Also, the class can feel quite clunky to play, due to it's mechanics. But it can also be quite satisfying, if you can get into the rhythm. At least SnB has incredible ability to adapt to fight at hand - be it due to spells or due to tactics and morale setups. If you are the only tank in SC, you can switch to a more defensive setup and quite easily be very hard to kill, if you also use your spells correctly and switch bellows accordingly. I'd say that it is a very solo friendly class to play. I haven't played it much in RvR, so can't comment on that.
Be warned, I found it a pain in the ass to level up through questing/farming, though, especially before lvl 28, when you can get your main damage or farming tools. (It could be because it was my first ever class I leveled, but I think there's some truth to this.)


Things to take into consideration:

- The nature of fighting changes a lot in T4. People have more defensive stats and also damage. Therefore, while class archetypes become more defined, they also become more restricting. The number of players involved and scale of fights gets bigger, and things become increasingly chaotic. You become a lot more insignificant as a solo player.
- Staying alive in T4 as melee DPS solo is very difficult. The opposing side casters knows you are more squishy then tanks, yet are closer/easier to reach then their rDPS/casters, therefore you become a target of choice for them very often. Especially, if you play Choppa. So playing a melee DPS class solo becomes a lot about choosing the right time to commit and judging what you can and can not survive. It involves a lot more downtime spent maneuvering and hiding instead of fighting (in contrast to T1-T3, where you can fight pretty much all the time).


To answer your main question in regards to classes I actively play: I'd say offtank DPS BO, be it SnD or 2h, is definitely viable in solo or group setting. SH is also a very good choice if you don't want to play 'up front dps'. I'd say, if you don't want to get into group play - Choppa less so. Or it's just more frustrating at times. As for other classes - as far as I know all of the pure dps classes have at least one viable spec.

[Telen]

One thing to bear in mind, imo, is ''denaturing'' a class or playing it hybrid (such as dps tanks, WP, dok, AM) is perhaps the hardest thing to do well in the game.

This is another thing to keep in mind. If you arent doing at least the same amount of healing as dps on a dps healer or guard switching and using defensive and mitigation cooldowns as a tank. You really would be more effective as a true dps.

[valancian]

You know i really didn't expect these large, and honestly extremely helpful answers. Being so new to the community didn't know what to expect, maybe a few short but sweets but hell you guys are a treat.

I'm still having issues picking a main, the classes are all so interesting. But i think I've given up on any healer style class at least. so Archmage, rune priest, Disciple, shammy etc. are kinda out the window. I've also kinda ruled out Knight of the blazing sun.

After testing out a few more things on the classes im defiantly becoming more open to Ranged DPS. Magus seems interesting, although I've seen it get **** on quite a lot, I've always been the black sheep lol. I may entertain the idea of Squig Herder although i don't normally like Gretchin/Goblins and prefer to be one o' da ork boyz. Dunno if I'd play a slayer or choppa either, I've heard the squish is real, not to mention i don't like being shirtless 24/7..lookin at you slayer, and witch elf too honestly, too nekkid.

Soooo that leaves on my ever shortening list of classes:
Magus, Witch Hunter, Squig Herder, Black Ork, Marauder, Chosen, Engineer, Ironbreaker, Swordmaster, White Lion, Shadow Warrior, and Blackguard.

12 down, 11 to go ehy? I'm making progress at least!

Edit:I'll take into consideration your account on denaturing. Dunno if i'd ever make a good tank, at least not yet, in a game i barely understand. If i follow that logic and take tanks out of the equation that could shrink my list by 5, leaving me with 7 classes left. One day though, If i do remove tanks from my list right now, i definitely need to learn how to do all the neat things tanks can do lol.

[Telen]

Slayer and Choppa are the most group dependant of the dps classes. Though they can do ok solo its just much much harder than say a WL. If you want rdps, dont want a goblin, dont want to blow yourself up, want to do well solo and in group. Shadow Warrior, Magus or Engineer. Id go with the Shadow Warrior if you like gameplay thats more involved than being a turret.