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Do not reintroduce LoTD/Sov and higher armors/sc 65+weapons.

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Zxul
Posts: 1890

Do not reintroduce LoTD/Sov and higher armors/sc 65+weapons.

Post#1 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:46 pm

The reasons being variety and balance.

Quite a few LoTD items were too powerful to balance- there was a major difference between for example a caster with melee absorb pocket, compared to the caster without (saying this as a caster). Way too much for being a difference in a single item, and allowing no way to balance the game for both those who had them, and who hadn't.

Another thing is LoTD vessel weapons. On a lower lvls, they were basically amazingly better then most comparable lvl weapons. At t4, they were still best weapons for casters- better then rr 100 ones.

As a result, at lower lvls it forced all to use them, removing the variety, and making most other weapons till t4 useless for all classes. At t4, casters were still locked into them- both cause of vessel weapons being better for casters then sc ones, and by the fact that since melee classes dmg does scales with weapon's dmg, casters had to use vessel weapons to be able to compete with melee.

Then there are the sc weapons. Since melee classes dmg scales with weapon's dmg, it forced melee classes to use only sc weapons at t4, bar very few other choices (repairable ones for some classes, and rr98 city ones)- meaning usually only choice between 2 versions of same sc weapon as a valuable option.

Another thing is armors. Besides the DF and WF being a major power increase compared to lower options, a Sov armor was as well a major power jump compared to lower options, making other pvp armors and pve ones useless to lot of classes, except for a very specific setups.

As such I suggest to remove LoTD entirely, thus removing all the balance problems coming from it, as well as to remove 65+ sc weapons, and all armors higher then Warlord. It will keep a power curve, and balance, much more manageable, as well as open much more options for different setups- pve armors and mixes of different pvp armor sets will become useful again, and there will be much more valuable weapon choices (for example, influence weapons, keep bags weapons, epic quests weapons, purple drop weapons, rr55 sc weapons).

To balance the lower dmg, and to open more variety in RR use, maybe remove the last rank of Trivial Blows, keeping it at 30% crit dmg reduction top.

Another effect will be making non-LoTD pve useful again. PQs in pve zones, as well as non-LoTD dungeons, were much more interesting then LoTD pve (and weren't about finding how can you bug the specific boss)- the reason why nobody was doing them was that after LoTD introduction the rewards become mostly useless. Without LoTD items, all those pve zones and PQs will become useful again.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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RyanMakara
Posts: 1563

Re: Do not reintroduce LoTD/Sov and higher armors/sc 65+weap

Post#2 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:22 pm

LotD weapons aren't better on their own, they require Vulture Lord Talismans and other expensive Talismans before becoming powerful enough. All of which have a timer, which could be bugged by banking the item. This argument doesn't make a lick of sense, as you base the power of the weapons on a bugged system that will inevitably be fixed by the time T4 comes around in this version. I do agree with the pocket items. Either make them more common, or reduce their effect.

We're not going to get Warpforged and Doomflayer introduced again, I feel. They aren't in the current database and it'd be difficult to reconstruct every set with the according stats from scratch. As for Sovereign armor... Why remove an entire gearset when you can simply adjust the stats? Reducing the power gap to Sovereign was fixed beforehand by making a weaker version that required 10 less renown ranks. If the gap is still too big, we can adjust the stats. You'd remove the necessity of getting to Renown Rank 70-80 by removing this set entirely.

If we remove LotD, how are we going to get Tyrant's armor? It's equal to Warlord and always has been in high demand. Also, by removing LotD, people aren't going to do more PQs outside LotD. The PQ rewards are simply inferior to the RvR armor, not the rewards from LotD PQs (aside from the Tomb of the Vulture Lord)

Maybe we could introduce a better system altogether. Adjust stats for both PvE and RvR armor and weapons, and make a specific interest for PvE items to stimulate it. PQs counting towards a zone lock will work once people enjoy doing it both for helping with realm with PvE, and the influence /bag drop rewards.
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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Do not reintroduce LoTD/Sov and higher armors/sc 65+weap

Post#3 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:44 pm

Are the values for the statistics of gear even sent to the client? Because if not, the same problem exists as if career balance is later attempted - the client's info cannot be changed.

Also, this thread is very premature. I don't see much point in discussing the topic.

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RyanMakara
Posts: 1563

Re: Do not reintroduce LoTD/Sov and higher armors/sc 65+weap

Post#4 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:22 pm

Azarael wrote:Are the values for the statistics of gear even sent to the client? Because if not, the same problem exists as if career balance is later attempted - the client's info cannot be changed.

Also, this thread is very premature. I don't see much point in discussing the topic.
That's a good question, now that you mention it. I'll try to edit a few weapons by increasing their strength stat a lot, to see if the damage scales up, too. It worked with wounds directly, though.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2645

Re: Do not reintroduce LoTD/Sov and higher armors/sc 65+weap

Post#5 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:25 pm

It is a bit premature but I still think there is much validity to the post

LOTD clearly made WAR RvR less balanced. I'd even go so far to say the person who designed it was a complete idiot

An inherent Problem with PvE end gear in a RvR game is you can get it for "free" and it is without RR-requirements. Piggyback guildies that exploit bugged bosses or buy it from a item farmers both are equally bad

All this said I think the biggest issue with LOTD still was that it made T4 RR-rewards, lairs, dungeons redundant and a waste of time. This was pointed out in the first post but can't be repeated enough times. Having 5% of the game content make 95% of the game redundant is ....
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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RyanMakara
Posts: 1563

Re: Do not reintroduce LoTD/Sov and higher armors/sc 65+weap

Post#6 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:12 pm

Bozzax wrote:It is a bit premature but I still think there is much validity to the post

LOTD clearly made WAR RvR less balanced. I'd even go so far to say the person who designed it was a complete idiot

An inherent Problem with PvE end gear in a RvR game is you can get it for "free" and it is without RR-requirements. Piggyback guildies that exploit bugged bosses or buy it from a item farmers both are equally bad

All this said I think the biggest issue with LOTD still was that it made T4 RR-rewards, lairs, dungeons redundant and a waste of time. This was pointed out in the first post but can't be repeated enough times. Having 5% of the game content make 95% of the game redundant is ....
Without RR requirements, but with bind on pickup. That's what has always fascinated me about Warhammer Online; you need to actually get your own gear. You can't buy the Darkpromise, Sentinel or Tyrant armor (although people have tried), only the boots and belt.

The lairs and dungeons were always redundant, which was due to the RvR armor being better than the PvE armor. It was no longer a necessity to have the items (which had insanely bad rates due to the lockout/drop system it used), but simply became a vanity item. Of course, there's a few bosses and lairs that dropped items which were of actual use (items with crit rates, special procs and whatnot), but it has always been redundant by how crude the design of acquiring 'epic' PvE loot was.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2645

Re: Do not reintroduce LoTD/Sov and higher armors/sc 65+weap

Post#7 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:28 pm

RyanMakara wrote:
Bozzax wrote:It is a bit premature but I still think there is much validity to the post

LOTD clearly made WAR RvR less balanced. I'd even go so far to say the person who designed it was a complete idiot

An inherent Problem with PvE end gear in a RvR game is you can get it for "free" and it is without RR-requirements. Piggyback guildies that exploit bugged bosses or buy it from a item farmers both are equally bad

All this said I think the biggest issue with LOTD still was that it made T4 RR-rewards, lairs, dungeons redundant and a waste of time. This was pointed out in the first post but can't be repeated enough times. Having 5% of the game content make 95% of the game redundant is ....
Without RR requirements, but with bind on pickup. That's what has always fascinated me about Warhammer Online; you need to actually get your own gear. You can't buy the Darkpromise, Sentinel or Tyrant armor (although people have tried), only the boots and belt.
Im a lazy bastard so I got my gear from piggybacking my friends on bugged boss runs. Seriously 0 effort and no brains but that is me. Item farmers would also drag you along for a few $ until you got the gear you wanted
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

Luth
Posts: 2840

Re: Do not reintroduce LoTD/Sov and higher armors/sc 65+weap

Post#8 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:33 pm

I wish the server would be already in a state, where we have to worry about endgame-item-balance... :D

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Bozzax
Posts: 2645

Re: Do not reintroduce LoTD/Sov and higher armors/sc 65+weap

Post#9 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:39 pm

Another valid Point :D
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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nalgol
Former Staff
Posts: 296

Re: Do not reintroduce LoTD/Sov and higher armors/sc 65+weap

Post#10 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:57 pm

gear stats are send from the server so we could rebalanced stuff

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