Return of Reckoning

Bretin wrote: okay since we're here and you are refering to 6vs6:

1.) AoE detaunt has no impact since the WP will be the one who is guarded mainly while the tank who is guarding the mentioned WH and responsible for swaps
You should be ashamed of yourself (see I can do it too ) AoE detaunt does have an impact when the said tank has to swap guard. If one of your healers is getting pounded on, the tank will swap guard while you AoE detaunt the group, avoiding too much pressure put on yourself or your healers. (this is the survivability part)
2.) I assume every destru premade will bring a marauder to a 6vs6, a class who can take down a WH all by himself through guard and heal
I have yet to meet such a Marauder. Are you implying that a Mara can kill a WH who is guarded and getting healed? Heck even if it's only 1 healer... that is not happening. That special mara would also be punted by the tank if he even get's the WH to half health, which is not happening btw.
3.) Destru tanks provide 2x M4 every minute a feature order can't compete with. if you think crit buffs can, well congrats m8 you disgraced yourself again
I am yet to see this... unless you're specifically trying to get your tanks to M4 as fast as possible... and even then it's a M4 morale vs two tactics you only need 16 points total to spend.
4.) if running WP+WH, you lack a high armor debuff, assuming you're fighting a DoK/Mrd group most of your dmg will land in mitigation nirvana
WH's still have torment, and can save their FP for when the WP has his heal debuff ready.
5.) The WP wouldn't be able to purge wether CoK due to it's refreshment nor Mrd's armor, wounds or heal debuff
The WP though would provide extra heals.
6.) KD is usually provided by tanks in a 6vs6 so no special utility on the WH here
Every little bit helps... otherwise you wouldn't waste your time cleansing on a dps DoK
7.) survivability of the group which would be provided by a DoK in such a scenario would be way better, thanks to devour essence & the low mitigation sponsored by mrds uncleansable armor debuff
The DoK doesn't get as much damage increased from the armor debuff... if anything it's thunderous blow that help the DoK out, and really the whole premade.

Theorizing is all fun and games but the comp we both listed would result in a really long drawn-out fight. Both sides would have high survivability and both would either rely on timing or on someone making a mistake.

Bretin wrote:

magter3001 wrote:The DoKs may cleanse all of incoming heal debuffs but none of the outgoing heal debuffs (iirc) with the IB ougoing heal debuff being the most important one (20s).

can be avoided by movement and positioning = ... issue. also i think we're discussing incoming healdebuffs not outgoing.
but again, is it fair that debuff types on order are splitted 4/4/4 and destru 3 hex/4 curse/5 ailment?
movement and positioning becomes an issue in tight corners (like GoE) or if the IB is within 30 ft of you in which he can either snare or root. I'm yet to find any healer who is perfect 100% of the time. And no I don't think it's fair... but neither are a lot of things in this game

magter3001 wrote:DoKs also have to deal with an AoE SL as opposed to WPs who never face a melee squig herder. DoKs also can't cleanse the AoE snares that Order tanks have in KotBS aoe snare and IB snare while WPs only have to worry about BO snare (at level 35).

Order has to deal with the marauder, SL on 20 targets and 20 sec duration would be fair compared to it. about snare: BOs snare is spamable and has no CD it can make up for both KotBS and IB.
BO snare is spamable so long as the BO is in the correct plan. But even then, that is not the only ability the BO would use :/ Marauder's are not the alpha and the omega of the mmo world either and still rely on a full group to be successful. Be grateful I didn't bring up pounce

magter3001 wrote:The problem you're having is making an argument of black and white. You're forgetting about all the other colors that make up the game. You can't just compare a heal debuff with another heal debuff... you have to see how they work in the grand scheme of things.

actually i don't, i try to make a class viable to provide more than 1 trick pony specs and i try to keep out my realm favored opinion at all.

The class is already viable and is not the only class with a 1 trick pony spec. Technically, the WP now has two specs based off Aza and his grace buff. Destro also has 1 trick pony specs (SH anyone?)

I also play both realms and played both realms on live... including the WP. T3 right now is really balanced, at least compared to the disaster that was T2. T4 will only introduce more core class abilities, especially for Destro, which at that time will have to be balanced. But at the moment... the WP is fine. Not to mention... I doubt anyone on Order wants to see anymore dps healers

magter3001 wrote:You should be ashamed of yourself (see I can do it too ) AoE detaunt does have an impact when the said tank has to swap guard. If one of your healers is getting pounded on, the tank will swap guard while you AoE detaunt the group, avoiding too much pressure put on yourself or your healers. (this is the survivability part)

in a 6vs6 you usually won't split the dps. if the healer is pressured by the train, the WP doesn't need to detaunt - since nobody would hit him in that case - even tho we assume that our tanks would double guard the healer to prevent a guard kick combined with a high spike. if the train leave the healer and go for the WP, he is guarded immediately so where exactly was the need of a detaunt?

magter3001 wrote:I have yet to meet such a Marauder. Are you implying that a Mara can kill a WH who is guarded and getting healed? Heck even if it's only 1 healer... that is not happening. That special mara would also be punted by the tank if he even get's the WH to half health, which is not happening btw.

yes i imply that and the "special marauder" was me back on the live server against the best group i've met so far in this game (ze germans who beat Orz - on a substitude setup ). The WH died 27 times in a 50 min 6vs6 and there was no counterplay. if the class won't receive a nerf (which is a different story) i neither see how this class gets countered on RoR. it's just sad to see that ppl are not able to realize how fcking broken this class really is. But w/e i don't wanna start the marauder discussion and keep this for a nerf thread once i've seen his t4 impact ...

back to our scenario: The IB/Kotbs could kick you one time and the marauder would have more than one tool to catch up after a punt. all of his abilities are on a pretty short cd and he could just start pressuring him again. if popping MA to go ham for a kill, i'd assume the mrd would be intelligent enough to press RD . the WH is by far the easiest to kill target in the whole game and once he is pressured there is not much he can do. killing him through guard and heal on a marauder is not that big of a deal. sad but true story

magter3001 wrote:I am yet to see this... unless you're specifically trying to get your tanks to M4 as fast as possible... and even then it's a M4 morale vs two tactics you only need 16 points total to spend.

16 mastery points for 1 core tactics and a core m4. nice try

magter3001 wrote:WH's still have torment, and can save their FP for when the WP has his heal debuff ready.

getting backstabbed is a ... or is caused by a KD (3s max).

magter3001 wrote:The WP though would provide extra heals.

so does the dok

magter3001 wrote:Every little bit helps... otherwise you wouldn't waste your time cleansing on a dps DoK

but unnecessary in that case, while purge isn't

magter3001 wrote:The DoK doesn't get as much damage increased from the armor debuff... if anything it's thunderous blow that help the DoK out, and really the whole premade.

almost all dmg abilities of the DoK deal physical damage, i hope you won't use rend soul for it's dmg on cd

magter3001 wrote:Theorizing is all fun and games but the comp we both listed would result in a really long drawn-out fight. Both sides would have high survivability and both would either rely on timing or on someone making a mistake

if you wanna test how long the fight will be and if you wanna show me the unleashed strength of a WH/WP combo, we can do a 6vs6 whenever you got this setup ready. i'm sure it won't last long.. mrd and dok is pretty sick while WP and WH is mediocre at best :p

magter3001 wrote:The class is already viable and is not the only class with a 1 trick pony spec.

viable in which enviroment? in a 6vs6? he is definitely not viable and if running a WP order is restricted to certain setups while destru isn't when running a DoK!

magter3001 wrote:I also play both realms and played both realms on live... including the WP. T3 right now is really balanced, at least compared to the disaster that was T2. T4 will only introduce more core class abilities, especially for Destro, which at that time will have to be balanced. But at the moment... the WP is fine.

how is he balanced if he is limited to the classes he can group up with or will force them to spec something subpar and how is it justified that the only hd which is not affected by DoKs group purge is a 25% (20s) which doesn't even deal damage and requires 10 mastery points while destru has all viable healdebuff on ailments (except dok and choppa), short or no cds and is not restricted to certain builds / classes? i really don't get it.

Bretin wrote: yes i imply that and the "special marauder" was me back on the live server against the best group i've met so far in this game (ze germans who beat Orz - on a substitude setup ).
/facepalm... you realize we're talking about T3 right now?

back to our scenario: The IB/Kotbs could kick you one time and the marauder would have more than one tool to catch up after a punt. all of his abilities are on a pretty short cd and he could just start pressuring him again. if popping MA to go ham for a kill, i'd assume the mrd would be intelligent enough to press RD . the WH is by far the easiest to kill target in the whole game and once he is pressured there is not much he can do. killing him through guard and heal on a marauder is not that big of a deal. sad but true story
Again.... why the hell are you bringing RR100 live into this? When in the whole discussion did I bring up RR100? We're talking about the best marauders right now... stifle your little e-peen talk cuz no one cares

magter3001 wrote:WH's still have torment, and can save their FP for when the WP has his heal debuff ready.

getting backstabbed is a ... or is caused by a KD (3s max).
GCD has been changed to 1.1 on RoR so that FP is now a lot more effective... don't underestimate this.

magter3001 wrote:The WP though would provide extra heals.

so does the dok
Which is why I said it would be a really long drawn-out fight that will require someone to either mess up or wise up

magter3001 wrote:The DoK doesn't get as much damage increased from the armor debuff... if anything it's thunderous blow that help the DoK out, and really the whole premade.

almost all dmg abilities of the DoK deal physical damage, i hope you won't use rend soul for it's dmg on cd
The covenants are also spirit based and have a good chance to proc with DW

magter3001 wrote:Theorizing is all fun and games but the comp we both listed would result in a really long drawn-out fight. Both sides would have high survivability and both would either rely on timing or on someone making a mistake

if you wanna test how long the fight will be and if you wanna show me the unleashed strength of a WH/WP combo, we can do a 6vs6 whenever you got this setup ready. i'm sure it won't last long.. mrd and dok is pretty sick while WP and WH is mediocre at best :p

But I enjoy denying you the one thing you want most.

Bretin wrote:

magter3001 wrote:The class is already viable and is not the only class with a 1 trick pony spec.

viable in which enviroment? in a 6vs6? he is definitely not viable and if running a WP order is restricted to certain setups while destru isn't when running a DoK!
So WP is not viable? Beats me why there are so many WPs around then... I guess salvation spec isn't viable. I'm gonna assume you meant wrath spec and will give you a freebie since English is probably your second language... then again English is my third so whatevs.

magter3001 wrote:I also play both realms and played both realms on live... including the WP. T3 right now is really balanced, at least compared to the disaster that was T2. T4 will only introduce more core class abilities, especially for Destro, which at that time will have to be balanced. But at the moment... the WP is fine.

how is he balanced if he is limited to the classes he can group up with or will force them to spec something subpar and how is it justified that the only hd which is not affected by DoKs group purge is a 25% (20s) which doesn't even deal damage and requires 10 mastery points while destru has all viable healdebuff on ailments (except dok and choppa), short or no cds and is not restricted to certain builds / classes? i really don't get it.

I think you forgot that Mara heal debuff is 25%. If you want the 50%... you gotta spend a tactic slot and 12 points into the mastery. Also... what makes WPs so special in needing a dps spec comparable to other mdps? Are SH also gonna get that treatment? Or SWs? How about Choppa AoE tree? DoKs also can use some love since they don't compare to pure dps... What is it you don't really get? The game was made by Mythic... there are problems but the WP is not one... at least not yet... not in T3 and not in T4 when they become unkillable.

magter3001 wrote:/facepalm... you realize we're talking about T3 right now?

and now the guy becomes salty what else should i have expected? but i'm sorry to disappoint you once more we're aiming for endgame balance and that's what we talk about.

magter3001 wrote:Again.... why the hell are you bringing RR100 live into this? When in the whole discussion did I bring up RR100? We're talking about the best marauders right now... stifle your little e-peen talk cuz no one cares

Again.... we're talking about endgame 40/80 and there will be no difference since the mrd was the only class who could compete on rr70+ with rr100. besides that i didn't name a single ability which will not be available in my described scenario or gave a clear evidence in terms of me talking about rr100. my e-peen is already alright no need to strengthen it in a back and forth discussion. you asked me about a special marauder, i told you my experience. how is that bragging?

magter3001 wrote:GCD has been changed to 1.1 on RoR so that FP is now a lot more effective... don't underestimate this.

order biased #nerf WH

magter3001 wrote:The covenants are also spirit based and have a good chance to proc with DW

ok so covenant dmg > ability dmg. that's like comparing FT with WoP, AB, GB and HoR.

magter3001 wrote:I think you forgot that Mara heal debuff is 25%. If you want the 50%... you gotta spend a tactic slot and 12 points into the mastery.

i think you forgot that Mara heal debuff is an core ability on a 5 sec CD which provides dmg as well while WP has to spend 10 points to get his on a 20s CD and no damage.

magter3001 wrote:Also... what makes WPs so special in needing a dps spec comparable to other mdps?

did i ask to make him 100% comparable or am i talking about making him viable in terms of group synergy and viability in lategame group PvP to get rid of the slayer meta? you did not make a single point in this whole discussion and you failed every single time when you tried to explain why this change wouldn't be justified.

magter3001 wrote:Are SH also gonna get that treatment? Or SWs? How about Choppa AoE tree? DoKs also can use some love since they don't compare to pure dps...

derail train chuuu chuuu

magter3001 wrote:there are problems but the WP is not one... at least not yet... not in T3 and not in T4 when they become unkillable.

unkillable when going full heal right but i assume you saw immortal melee wp's taking the spot of a slayer back on live in almost every half competitive premade. the server you must be played on was probably 5 times worse than badlands.

Bretin wrote:

magter3001 wrote:/facepalm... you realize we're talking about T3 right now?

and now the guy becomes salty what else should i have expected? but i'm sorry to disappoint you once more we're aiming for endgame balance and that's what we talk about.

Your precious end-game is coming in what... a year, maybe two? You do realize that RR80 is not going to be introduced with R40... there's no way the devs will do that...

Hell I would be surprised if they allow us to get anything higher than Darkpromise/Invader for the first few months. You should have waited on making this thread then... otherwise it's just a waste of time.

magter3001 wrote:Your precious end-game is coming in what... a year, maybe two? You do realize that RR80 is not going to be introduced with R40... there's no way the devs will do that...

Hell I would be surprised if they allow us to get anything higher than Darkpromise/Invader for the first few months. You should have waited on making this thread then... otherwise it's just a waste of time.

Bretin wrote:On the one hand I wanted to hold back with making suggestions until we at least have all the masterypoints and an endgame meta.

On the other hand the change I am going to suggest now seems by far not gamebreaking to me.
It is supposed to enable another option in dps choice for melee setups.

should've added "It is supposed to enable another option in dps choice for melee setups in certain tiers from lvl 25 up to 40/80" to make sure it is understandable for the dyslexic ones.

ps: go sleep and once you're back try to decide if you wanna debate or troll. you cannot have both.

Bretin wrote: should've added "It is supposed to enable another option in dps choice for melee setups in certain tiers from lvl 25 up to 40/80" to make sure it is understandable for the dyslexic ones.

No need to add that. I already posted my points for Aza... and can post more if need be but I think this is enough to delay any change to the WP for balance sake. Off to bed, and off the thread. /bye