Overarching balance changes

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

I honestly can't fathom how people believe balancing classes around 24v24 would translate well into smallscale/better than smallscale into large scale: it would necessitate x amount of players before a class could become 'viable'. RoR doesn't have many active WBs at all, and there are a far larger amount of smaller guilds roaming around than active WBs.

Noone is asking for single target dmg to be ballanced around 24v24 .That would just not translate well at all into 12v12 later coz heals would have to be boosted to around 100% of what they are now. What you seem to not fathom is that defensive stats and group heals and defensive buffs doesn't scale depening the format you're playing. If heals and defensive stats were ballanced on the dps output from 6v6 battle they would completly usless in 12v12 as the dps output would double under perfect circumstances.

We're talking about a ballance were a 12 man have about the same SINGLE TARGET dps output as a 24man warband does with AOE abillties ON A SINGLE TARGEET.(Maybe even a 18man WB) This has to be done to ballance group heals, defensive buffa, defensive stats in the game. And if this is done on to small scale like 6v6 or to large scale like 48v48 those stats and abillties just overpowered or obsolete. So when we look at the history of this game and the FACT that it had 0 permanent content for 6v6 It becomes really obvius that the game was ballanced for 12v12 in smaller scale combat.


...but while the DPS output doubles in a 12v12 - or quadruples in 24v24 - so too does the healing output, the amount of absorbs going on, the potential for M4, the amount of tanks and thus challenges/guards being applied. It is perfectly balanced.

No it doesn't. Groupheals and Absorbs, Morales, Buffs etz are all group based, and debuffs doesn't stack.
And it's not quadrupled in 24v24 as it's not effective to kill 1 target at the time anymore.

Well, you can heal out of group (RP/WP/Zeal/DoK, all have AoE radius -out of group- heals), single target cleanse out of group + challenge, AoE snare, Aoe spammed crippling strikes(destro)/Encouraged aim(order), and M3 Bellow affect enemy in a radius, so having tanks, no matter their group, cycle them will benefit all the WB. And allies also benefit greatly from HtL since in WB you can always have at least 2 different tanks spamming it for a perma 30% (possibly even 45%) dodge/disrupt.

A lot of stuff is group only, but there is also a lot of goodies that benefit everyone in WB play, especially if the 8 tanks coordinate their stuff well.

Just pointing the obvious...

Yes you can out of group heal, but coz there is guard dmg you really neeed to keep the heals within your group. Also cast times and procs on RP/ZE/SH/AM makes it really uneficiant not to group heal. If they removed the guard dmg split then tanks would deal alot more damage due to speccing for more offensive stats over block and parry and healers would just need to heal even more.

All the other things you desribe is bassicly tactics organized WB uses in RVR to keep dmg as low as possibe while fighting in large scale and against superior numbers. They are all allready ballanced by not stacking.

[Bozzax]

Q – Is there a possibility that we will have a permanent addition of a 6v6 scenario?
Carrie –  So the answer is yes.  It’s completely a possibility.  We have been talking about revisiting the rotation based on the metrics we’ve been pulling and looking at some of the favorite Weekend Warfronts.  If this goes over well and we decide that it is a bonus to the rotation, then I suspect you’ll see it permanently.  (GG –  The Eternal Citadel is a new 6v6 scenario that is being tested for 1.3.6 right now.)

There hasn't been any single permanent 6v6 content in this game at all until the very end of the game.

2008 sept game released
2009
2010 6v6 scenarios are introduced in a live event and later same year was made part of the permanent line-up

Spoiler:

1.3.4 New 6v6 Live Event Scenario: The Ironclad

2011 dec [war herald] holiday bonus and scenario shakeup
The line-up of scenarios that are permanently available has changed. The new list is as follows:

Tier 1
Nordenwatch
Battle for Praag
Gates of Ekrund (6v6)

Tier 2
Nordenwatch
Mourkain Temple
Gates of Ekrund (6v6)

Tier 3
Nordenwatch
Mourkain Temple
Gates of Ekrund (6v6)
Reikland Factory

Tier 4
Nordenwatch
Mourkain Temple
Gates of Ekrund (6v6)
Reikland Factory
Caledor Woods (6v6)

2012
2013 dec

Now imagine if 2 6man actually was 1 12man instead.

I'm not making this **** up. I'm using logic and historical facts.

You sure?

[Valfaros]

Well dec 2011 is pretty late if you ask me. It would be interessting to see what balance changes they made since then. If you can actually post balance changes that were made to balance things in 6v6 it is totally correct to say they were going for 6v6 balance otherwise this doesn't really say much.
Still interessting to see the timeline and it tells you that they didn't look for 6v6 balance in the beginning atleast I can't imagine how you balance a game around something that doesn't exist.

They were also going for smaller sc's so that people experience shorter waiting times and yes on certain servers you waited quite long before they introduced smaller sc's. I remember logging in queing for sc's and then logging out after no sc popped in 10minutes.

[Jaycub]

Crowd control and immunities gaining ground. So how do you guys feel about the current implementation of immunities?

As far as I know nothing has changed since it was rolled out? Everything is classed in one of the 2 groups, and immunity timers are usually based on 1 sec of CC = 10 sec of immunity up to a maximum of 50/60 seconds?

Personally I think it's too harsh. Would like to see CC such as staggers and roots give a dynamic immunity timer based on the actual time spent in them. For instance if a stagger was immediately broken it might only give 10 seconds of immunity instead of the full 30, or if it lasted 2 seconds than 20 seconds of immunity, same for roots.

I also think 30 seconds should be the longest any immunity timer should ever be.


Anyone think the current system is fine as it is? Or could it use some tweaking?

[Zealote]

@Jaycub I think they're mostly fine tbh, but don't feel any strong opposition to messing about with them a bit either.

Don't you think that'd just reward bad play though? Why should the enemy get a shorter immunity when your side messes up and breaks the root/stag?

Also don't like the effect it'd have when you use root-breakers etc (i.e. a tiny immunity if you used it straight away). Similarly, it'd be a nerf to the magus/engi stagger removal, since the faster you react and use it, the lower your allies' immunity.

Finally, I think it's fair that a 5s kd gives a longer immunity than a 3s one, so you'd have to vary the numbers (i.e. couldn't have 3s = 30s immy).

[footpatrol2]

I think immunity timers need to be smaller and the renown immunity thang should go.

[Jaycub]

The problem I have with really long immunity timers is they become something else from what they were at least I think originally intended to do. Which is stop the cancerous chain stunning someone into oblivion. 30 seconds is plenty, hell even 20 seconds is.

Take for instance a group is fighting at the middle of reikland factory then comes to my group at machine shop after finishing their fight mid, but they all still have 10 or 20 seconds of immunity it just feels really cheesy. They are taking with them an advantage from an earlier fight, in that they can't be controlled in a completely new one where no one there had any input on what happened.

[TenTonHammer]

I think immunity timers need to be smaller and the renown immunity thang should go.

Why does resolut defense need to be removed? Its 10 RR and has a 5min CD

Its kinda integral to MDPS's

[footpatrol2]

Because its integral to MDPS.

[TenTonHammer]

Because its integral to MDPS.

Annnnnnnd?


Block% is integral to tanks, should we remove it too?