Which class would you like to see in the Balance Forum?

[Jaycub]

SnB BG is still the worst tank in the game atm, for pretty much everything. 2H is just taking that to a whole nother level of S U C C.

The outgoing healdebuff is good in scenarios and whatnot, but in a 6v6 situation it's just pure garbage and not even worth the tactic slot. It's all about positioning of healers, and the potential hazard to your DPS with a tank missing from the front line. Sitting on healers with our IB is something we thought of trying to do instead of the usual MDPS brawl in the middle, but we haven't really got to try it. And considering destro never runs zealots in their meta groups charging the backlines to sit on a dok leaving our RP open probably isn't the best idea.

I guess what I'm trying to say is in my experience the outgoing healdebuff is pretty useless in 6v6.

[Penril]

Magus/Engi stagger is 5 secs, which is pretty good (if you run in a coordinated group with no pugs around to break the stagger).

[Jaycub]

^it is, also the disorient tactic the engineer has that modifies land mind is extremely good imo.

[peterthepan3]

Engineers on live could function somewhat as CC tank bots, but once the CC was done they were reduced to 'meh' for the rest of the fight.

[Penril]

SnB BG is still the worst tank in the game atm, for pretty much everything. 2H is just taking that to a whole nother level of S U C C.

The outgoing healdebuff is good in scenarios and whatnot, but in a 6v6 situation it's just pure garbage and not even worth the tactic slot. It's all about positioning of healers, and the potential hazard to your DPS with a tank missing from the front line. Sitting on healers with our IB is something we thought of trying to do instead of the usual MDPS brawl in the middle, but we haven't really got to try it. And considering destro never runs zealots in their meta groups charging the backlines to sit on a dok leaving our RP open probably isn't the best idea.

I guess what I'm trying to say is in my experience the outgoing healdebuff is pretty useless in 6v6.

You should probably try it then before claiming it is useless. I can run BG/IB for you guys this weekend, or maybe we can finally arrange that 6v6 (i think we were supposed to have one last weekend but our tanks were AWOL).

Oh! I just remembered another argument for BG suckyness: "it shares too many debuffs with Mara". Does that mean BG sucks? Or maybe it is another case of an OP class making others look bad? Should BG be buffed or Mara toned down a little?

[Jaycub]

Along with mara, why would you drop a chosen to run BG though? You can't afford to lose constant AoE snare, ini steal, and damage from the BO obviously.

I think it's also a problem that the other two choices on destro for tanks are just superior in what they bring compared to BG.

BG has no morale pump either :^(

edit: basically what I am saying is if you removed mara from the game people still wouldn't use BG

[Loans]

I don't really care other classes i just want sovereign on wp/dok or something similar that can able to regen fury or essence, for example instead of useless 5th bonus on set better regen 2 or more fury/essence per second (the same bonus on the book or a chance to gain xx f/e)

[sablasni]

hey Penril is it possible even in theory that zealots/runies can get an aoe detaunt like shammy?

[Morf]

Spoiler:

Morfee beg you stop misinterpreting what I'm saying, mate.

1) Magus isn't supposed to be a sorc DPS. I have acknowledged that. Magus is supposed to be a semi-stationary caster that intertwines dots with burst, who becomes more potent the longer he is allowed to stay in one spot (my personal belief anyway): but this currently doesn't work due to a plethora of reasons that have been mentioned already, including fast TTKs/suicidal nature of standing still in a fast-paced environment.

2) Exceptional players can make any class shine, that doesn't take away from the fact that some classes are underperforming. If you can play very well as a Magus, then imagine how good you'd be as a sorc? Similarly I knew of DPS Zealots on live that would destroy city DBs in aoe spec and scenario charts...would you take a dps zealot over a sorc or a sh for ST group?

3) You're referring to the Age of Overpowered warpforged, where literally every class could kill something in 1-3 GCDs. This server won't have warpforged, and as such ridiculously OP gear won't be there to serve as a bandaid.

4) Magus/Engi have every right to function as a main DPS. Their archetype is Ranged damage. That argument doesn't hold any weight with me whatsoever. There is literally no reason why these two classes shouldn't be as good at PERFORMING THEIR ROLE* (read: not-being-a-sorcerer-but-functioning-equally-well-as-a-ranged-damage-dealer-with-their-respective-talents/skills) as the other RDPS.

5) You have mentioned that the magus/engi bring a lot more to the table than damage. We have a stagger, a disarm that is a 2 second cast for a 3s disarm (more often used as a DPS skill), a melee snare (that makes sense, right?!) and rift - all of which are very good, but this topic is pertaining to non-rift bot magi/engis as they have another two trees. Squig herder brings an aoe snare, an incoming heal debuff, a ranged KB in the form of their pet, a silence... The fact that Magus has a few niche toys to play with that are situational (one of which requires you effectively ridding yourself of your mechanic and 20% damage) does not justify the class not being able to perform the role of main DPS.

6) Your opinion, but I believe balance should center around 6man scale as it will translate BETTER into larger scale than if balance was done on larger numbers and translated into small.

honestly it baffles me as to why anyone would oppose buffing these two classes that have underperformed in every department (other than riftbot which is really, really fun!...) since 2008.

Then what needs changing ? all i see ppl saying is they are not viable because of burst/damage output.

The whole point of these threads is to point out how terrible the actual design is...

Based on your logic i could also say that shaman isn't designed to heal cuz his healing/sustain/utility sucks compared to other healers and that we should cater the "design" idea of a hybrid , which clearly doesn't work.

Im not saying magus doesnt need something but i disagree with what appears to be being asked for.

It would be like me asking for reduction in cast time to shaman group heals/big heal because shaman healing is lacklustre compared to zeal/dok, imo you need to look deeper then just what appears on the surface.

[Penril]

Along with mara, why would you drop a chosen to run BG though? You can't afford to lose constant AoE snare, ini steal, and damage from the BO obviously.

I think it's also a problem that the other two choices on destro for tanks are just superior in what they bring compared to BG.

BG has no morale pump either :^(

edit: basically what I am saying is if you removed mara from the game people still wouldn't use BG

I think you are really underestimating the power of a spammable outgoing heal debuff. Your options for one are WE Kiss of Death, but several people prefer running double Mara, Mara + Choppa or even Mara + DPS Dok. The Choppa has one but requires 14 points in Hitta tree, exhausts their rage and is a Curse easily cleansable by WP. Maras don't have an outgoing HD (buff mara!) nor do Doks.

TL;DR: If you want to have an outgoing HD and don't run a BG, you are pretty much forced to run WE. Running a BG lets you play other setups.

You are correct on the AoE snare though; it is pretty strong atm, but as i point out it is because it levels the playing field against Slice Through/Earthshatter/No Escape. A little fix/change to the BG AoE snare would go a long way to making people realize BG is not half as bad as they think.