Return of Reckoning

I feel like chosen isn't too far off knight in T4 in terms of what it brings to a group. Just make it so EA requires a 2H, fix the knight 2h tree, nerf FM to 10%, clean up some of the useless abilities on both chosen and knight and I think things would be a lot better.

TenTonHammer wrote:Oh you poor dear you don't realize how bullshit op le (imba)balanced banana knight

If it was anyone else I'd say they were trolling but I think you a new player so let me break it down for you

First of Encourage Aim, Dirty tricks and focused mending
20% critical hit chance and 15% increased group healing means that a kotbs can slap a guard and go semi afk and still be more effective and powerful than any other tank in the game in a group

And that's what kotbs is
The single best group utility tank in the game

Now let's look at what you said
Discordant turbulence is god awful it's a 25% inc hd means it worse than every 50% inc hd that destro has which is why it is never specd

Compare this to kotbs 25% outgoing heal debuff which stacks with the 50% inc hd to reduce the healing that a healer can cast on them selves by 75%

Now as I said earlier dirty tricks + encouraged aim means that everyone in your party has a 20% chance to critically hit this INCLUDES a 10% chance to crit heal on your healers as well


Next let's talk about shield rush vs supression

Between renown and SR a kotbs can have 20% block rate now kotbs is a block based tank and it's best tactics like DT proc off block

Now compare that to chosen who is a parry based tank but whose best abilites : mixed defenses and destined for victory rely on block

Kotbs isn't meant to deal damage because you are the best defensive TANK in the game as well and if you really want to deal damage runefang + emperors champion letting a kotbs who went full deftard defensive soft cap str and all that for 30s



Yeah destined for victory is good, it's one of the best tactics in the game but I can say with a fair degree of confidence that most chosens would easily trade it for near 100% uptime crit and grp heal

And that not even mentioning a triple target snare tha cannot be clense by doks not the absurdly broken tactic that destroy confidence that completely shuts down shamans

Thanks for the response. I havnt played LIVE so some of the stuff you have said is only applicable on LIVE. Such as Dirty Tricks + Encouraged + Mending.

Dirty tricks also has a 100 foot range which means that not all back casters will benefit I have been TOLD it also doesnt refresh itself (like runefang) so its not 100% uptime even with block stacked really high. If you are not hit you wont block and wont proc this but yes you can be a VERY good buff bot just running Encouraged + Dirty Tricks providing 20% crit to your party.

As you said before you have to be within 30' of a healer for the outgoing to hit them. Which if you are means either they did something wrong OR you arent using guard like you should be. But as you said already, its never used.

@ 40, we will also BOTH have our wounds debuffs. I get this is COMING but it could be a year before T4 is released... So I am looking at right now. This is a private server so things CAN move quicker as far as changes if they determine its silly to give mirror classes the same ability at different levels.

Just like Chosen need block % for their feats, Knights need Parry for theirs but get more block %. Its almost backwards a bit...

It wont matter if you get another 380 STR and softcap it on a tank because you will STILL deal crap for damage. Even stacking STR and using a 2H and getting both these to put me @ 1000 STR I still deal crap for damage.

Now you mention a "triple target snare" and I assume you mean slotting Slice Through... We only get 3 tactic slots and this would NOT allow for Runefang or you would lose a toughness buff or others. Since we cant get the heal at this level.... Later we can use 4, so great we could use all three, but then you CANT slot Destroy Confidence which is what improves it...

So youve given 5 tactic slots that make the class OP, but we get 3 and 1 of which we cant even use now (in combination with the others) and it also eliminates two other good choices such as toughness or runefang as well...

Im not trying to troll you but it SEEMS like you are combining ALL knight specs into one and then saying thats the knight.

Well a Knight that stacks SnB, block %, cant get high Parry which means Runefang WONT be proccing a ton and even if it did, even stacking STR AND m2 ability youll still hit like a wet noodle.


My post above was to outline that other classes have options. The AM for instance has a healing path, a "balance" path with CC ability/debuffs and a DPS path.

The Chosen is a "mirror" class but seems much better suited with options in that he can roll 2H and has some attractive options (crits + AoE + debuffs) or SnB and tank.

So it just seemed to me that it would create more OPTIONS for the class if a few things were either better mirrored (like abilities/feats) or access to mirror abilities were gained at similar levels to Chosen (wounds debuff) Or things like focused offense created a bigger dynamic in the class where you could position yourself as more a DPS class at the loss of armor. 15% is garbage and not enough to make a difference. maybe with the wounds debuff at our current level it would make a big enough swing in targets HP where it would feel like we can have the option to deal more damage...

Like I said, I didnt play live, so a few of these things do seem sort themselves out like the wounds debuff....

Valnak wrote:

th3gatekeeper wrote:Looking further at some differences between Chosen and Knight... Am I missing something or do Knights just get the shaft?

I play both. I main'd Knight on Live, I only really want to play Chosen on RoR.

In general Chosen is better for damage while Knight is ridiculously overpowered for utility/group utility.

Right. I read the post, I agree with all you said. I guess my point is the Chosen seem to be NEARLY as good at tanking as the Knight, but have better tools in being a 2H tank than a Knight does... So why not adjust that so Chosen get a small buff to tanky and Knights get a small buff to 2H spec?

I rolled a Knight thinking it was the Chosen Equivalent, I played a Chosen on LIVE for a few months and all my friends wanted to play Order here. I was expecting similar options but for a 2H spec atleast its rather lack luster ATM. Mainly a big impact is the wounds debuff only being available with 2H AND @ lvl 40 where as I remember my Chosen having that in some of the early SCs and it was amazing.

Jaycub wrote:I feel like chosen isn't too far off knight in T4 in terms of what it brings to a group. Just make it so EA requires a 2H, fix the knight 2h tree, nerf FM to 10%, clean up some of the useless abilities on both chosen and knight and I think things would be a lot better.

I dont know about T4, again though, when is T4? Could be a year from now.... I already posted to Az that if they want to make T4 viable on private server they will need a bigger population to sustain 4 tiers of PVP ques.... Thats why lvl 32s are in the T3 bracket - because of SC que times.... So why not invest in QoL now if it doesnt have impact later SUCH AS making a wounds debuff available now versus @ 40 especially if the mirror class gets it too?

I like your ideas though.

(Chosen) E.A. - requires 2H

Fix the Knight 2H tree - what do you propose? Staggering Impact is frustrating a tad since Chosen get that built into several abilities already. Its almost like "Staggering Impact" should be on a 10 sec CD and since it lasts 10 seconds it would seem to make more sense. Also its our only real AoE....

FM @ 10% - we dont really use it now @ 32, but yeah that would even the tank side field a bit for Chosen.

I still think that even bumping Focused Offense up a bit would be good for BOTH Chosen and Knight. Losing 33% armor is a HUGE reduction of armor. Also taking up a tactic slot which could be slotted for Toughness or something else. So in all its costing you ~800 armor + 128 toughness for 15% damage? Seems like 30% would be more fair? Would make the class much more like a DPS class OPTION.

Now Chosen and Knight would have two viable options - MDPS or Tank.

The one and only purpose of chosens 2h tree is not damage

it is to better be able to apply crippling strikes in an aoe

only really "useful" in WB v WB

even then 2h chosen is a joke since you lose destined for victory

SnB chosen in trispec can still drop crippling strikes in AoE with blast wave

chosen 2h is hardly viable and both 2h varients of off tank are inferior to their SnB alternatives

This might of been discussed earlier on in the thread, but I'm starting to play a dps kotbs for the first time. Would anyone be able to give some tips please?

Heres how my old guild back on livedid dps kotbs in parties, we had 2 kotbs, 1 was your standard SnB defensive kotbs the other one was a dps kotbs but they primiarly focused on defensive stats to mitigate guard damage What running 2 allowed us to do was break up that 20% grp crit and 15% grp heal and auras between our 2 tanks which let them slot more more/diffrent tactics and auras


our dps tank carried STR , Tough aura and resist and ran EA, slice through, rugged/banish darkness and rune fang and our def tank ran DT and FM, then depending on their mood the picked from a variety of tactic like Slice through, runefang, gilded shield, rugged, banish darkness

Basically the dps tank ( for us ) existed to allow our kotbs more freedom in auras and tactic options and to cast staggering impact

FearTheGriff wrote:This might of been discussed earlier on in the thread, but I'm starting to play a dps kotbs for the first time. Would anyone be able to give some tips please?

Well here is my experience playing a 2h Knight and also playing around with SnB....

As a 2H Knight, even maxing out damage and losing armor via Focused Offense you wont deal amazing damage, so if you are expecting fatty crits with a decently tanky character, youll be let down a little.

I typically run Resist/Toughness/STR auras with: waronlinebuilder.org - Knight of the Blazing Sun build

I dont bother with Blazing Blade, just use Precision.
Stack Parry % (renown + 3% ring) to proc Runefang.
Taunt is your best friend, I put this on "1" and use it EVERYTIME its up. 30% damage boost.
5/5 Duelist set is huge as its a 10% chance for a free taunt. Its a HUGE boost to damage.
My rotation usually consists of something like:
Crippling Blow -> Stagger Impact -> Shatter (if available) -> taunt -> Vicious/Precision/Shining -> Shatter -> Crippling. (all situational of course).

What I have noticed is that everyone ignores the Knight. If everyone realized that a 2H Knight isnt actually all that tanky my guess is people would focus us more and the class would be pathetic. I literally had a game against a premade where they pretended I was invisible, frankly because I dont deal great damage thus solo cant kill anything in a real game.

Which brings me back to the fact that IMO I think it would be FUN and add more options if the class could open up its damage ability a bit at the cost of tankiness (like Focused Offense giving more like 30% damage bonus instead of 15%).

The "best" guys in the game (like Hurgon) have the Brigand's weapon, I use the PVP 2h. You will see games where Knights top the damage charts but frankly its more illusion than anything. Most times this happens its a knight running the "all out assault" aura that ticks everyone in range for ~100. Its not focused damage at all and really doesnt do all that much in real games. Then because people ignore the tank since they dont have good control nor any way to reduce heals nor any amazing burst, its easy to HoT out heal our damage so noone cares to DPS us when they can focus on squishy targets that actually do damage.

Thats how I feel. As for tanking, you can make them BEASTS of a tank and feel like you can take on 10 guys at once and not die however your damage is complete crap and you basically are valuable just to "show up" and have auras + crit buffs up and the occasional taunt/disrupt casters but mainly just be a MDPS slave and stay in 30 feet of them (something you should do anyways, just as DPS you actually do damage too).

TenTonHammer wrote:Heres how my old guild back on livedid dps kotbs in parties, we had 2 kotbs, 1 was your standard SnB defensive kotbs the other one was a dps kotbs but they primiarly focused on defensive stats to mitigate guard damage What running 2 allowed us to do was break up that 20% grp crit and 15% grp heal and auras between our 2 tanks which let them slot more more/diffrent tactics and auras

our dps tank carried STR , Tough aura and resist and ran EA, slice through, rugged/banish darkness and rune fang and our def tank ran DT and FM, then depending on their mood the picked from a variety of tactic like Slice through, runefang, gilded shield, rugged, banish darkness

Basically the dps tank ( for us ) existed to allow our kotbs more freedom in auras and tactic options and to cast staggering impact

Solid setup forsure. We were running a 2 Knight party this morning basically doing a similar thing today with a WP, 2 Knight, Slayer, AM(heals) and BW. Only 1 group but was a great time stacking auras + buffs.

Overall I again just wish 2H was a little more viable. A little more "DPS-y" and id even be willing to give up tankiness - although already feel like Focused Offense is enough of a loss giving up 33% armor and w.e benefit you would get from that tactic slot (most likely toughness)....

Even just giving us access to Arcing Swing now would make a HUGE difference in viability of the 2H Knight. Id also love Staggering to be a 10 sec CD rather than 30 which makes it really lack luster IMO, but there is nothing else to pick...

Thanks you two.

What about this build of second group tanks

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=kot ... :;;0:0:0:0:

I personally feel there are better options besides coordination