[Black Guard]2H Disparity between IB?

[noisestorm]

Dont even try to reason with Tesq. He does not want to understand certain points. No matter how often you tell him

[Gachimuchi]

Tentonhammer has pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter. This is less of IB 2H being better than BG 2H and more of BG is weak compared to IB(in most respects). Theres a reason you don't see BG in 6v6 premades as opposed to an IB. Unless the other premade you'll be fighting has been experimenting with double runepriest.

I think BG needs R40 to actually make it up far enough the trees to get the abilities they need to be effective. IB on the other hand is effective in every spec now. Additionally, Blackguard has many completely useless tactics and abilities in the trees which need to be reworked:

DPS tree
Monstrous Ruin: BG is not an AoE damage dealer
Blade of Ruin: Bad DoT that needs a reactionary for some reason

Deftard tree
Force of Fury: Might be useful in T4 to counter the astronomically large base chance to be crit upon being initiative debuffed but even so only has 50% uptime at best and also requires full hatred for max effect. It also buffs armor(useless because pots).
Feeding on Pain: BG doesn't have action problems.

Utility tree
Mostly fine with the exception of elite training which is pretty bad. You're looking at 60 action points for your group at max mechanic(wow!). It also is parry only... unlike IB which is block and has a rather beefy looking damage return effect.

IB gets their great skills/tactics much earlier into their trees wheras BG early-middle trees are filled with useless crap with the exception of Choking Fury, detaunt remove tactic, 15% crit on hate spend, and 50% outgoing heal nerf. None shall pass, enraged beating and Terrifying foe are OK. When I look at IB abilities at 9 points or under only Avenging the debt and Oath of vengeance look underwhelming.

Just my thoughts from the perspective of someone who has played Blackguard a little bit and played vs a lot of Ironbreakers.

[Gobtar]

Tentonhammer has pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter. This is less of IB 2H being better than BG 2H and more of BG is weak compared to IB(in most respects). Theres a reason you don't see BG in 6v6 premades as opposed to an IB. Unless the other premade you'll be fighting has been experimenting with double runepriest.

I think BG needs R40 to actually make it up far enough the trees to get the abilities they need to be effective. IB on the other hand is effective in every spec now. Additionally, Blackguard has many completely useless tactics and abilities in the trees which need to be reworked:

DPS tree
Monstrous Ruin: BG is not an AoE damage dealer
Blade of Ruin: Bad DoT that needs a reactionary for some reason ~ agreed this is a prefect candidate to being changed
Deftard tree
Force of Fury: Might be useful in T4 to counter the astronomically large base chance to be crit upon being initiative debuffed but even so only has 50% uptime at best and also requires full hatred for max effect. It also buffs armor(useless because pots).

~On live FoF reduced your crit rate by a percentage (example: a 19% chance to be critically hit is reduced by 8.5 percent). This made it garbage on live since most defensive tanks would have 1-5% chance to be critically hit...this can be seen on the paperdoll from the client. The RoR server treats FoF as a pure reduction to be critically hit (which coincides with all other increase and decreases to critically hit...honestly the mythic devs really went to a special place of dumb when working on the BG...even after the mirrored the class you had broken abilities like this!)

Feeding on Pain: BG doesn't have action problems. ~This would a perfect tactic to play around with FoW...

Utility tree
Mostly fine with the exception of elite training which is pretty bad. You're looking at 60 action points for your group at max mechanic(wow!). It also is parry only... unlike IB which is block and has a rather beefy looking damage return effect.
~no one takes Elite Training for the AP regen, they take it for the parry, and it's really solid for 2h builds (when you know someone is trying to KD or punt you)...I would have preffered getting hatred each parry over AP

IB gets their great skills/tactics much earlier into their trees wheras BG early-middle trees are filled with useless crap with the exception of Choking Fury, detaunt remove tactic, 15% crit on hate spend, and 50% outgoing heal nerf. None shall pass, enraged beating and Terrifying foe are OK. When I look at IB abilities at 9 points or under only Avenging the debt and Oath of vengeance look underwhelming.

Just my thoughts from the perspective of someone who has played Blackguard a little bit and played vs a lot of Ironbreakers.

[Landaren]

Bg has numerous debuffs that aid your teammates in dealing damage.

Bg has superior defensive tools compared to the ib that allow it to remain in fights longer.

Do ib have more damage dealing tools yes.

But those tools are in the form of damage via dots, where as BGs have incoming crit debuffs, wounds debuffs, toughness debuffs. Ap drains, the ability to not be detaunted.

Stop reaching for more when your class has plenty, the grass is not greener dude.

[greenstoned]

thats great and all but let me ask you this

How much does your blast wave debuff?

wrong question blast wave is an aoe wound debuff you shousl ask how much mara debuff which is the other st wounds debuff destru have (if you go st you have a mara, if you go aoe you have chosen so no bg spotn for that)


Now before you awnser i want the number of wounds you debuff when you have only specd up to quake in discord tree cause come late game 40/70 that thats as far as chosens will be specing into the discord tree

you wont be dropping 15+ pts into the tree to buff your resists and blast wave

at 32/40 HD debuffed when specd up to crimson death was 1.1K hp armor debuff at max hate was 1K

its on demand parry for "o-****" type moments has worth; on demand dmg block even for just 4 attacks has its merits

BO players will not always spec big brawlin some people will go instead for YMM and DYG

there is challenge and debuff 1 ppl damage it can be good or bad dependent how many pl youa re facing the mroe thenumber the less that skill is usefull

ok so in your opion CTW is "awful" what other abilty besides Try and Hurt Me offers an a direct counter to KOTBS 20% crit which order relis on and as such never stacks crit really because of it resource is by no means heard to generate on bg with DP

There is no counter as order g-crits stack appart from toughness that it work exatly as Trivial blow and the 20% damage reduction from Bo that negate bw damages where crit stack so well efficent.

Never said 2h bg was better than 2h ib, ib is one of the best 2h tanks

CD being in an aoe not beneficent to procing your aa haste nor befitting it is false

if you are spamming aooe why you want boost st auto attack it fail to me this logic

You apply CD to a target making it eaiser to crit making it easier for AA haste to proc

single target damages they increase your tank guard that require 3 tactic to be use and let be squigshy as hell

You also neglect to mention choking fury nor do you mention soul killer which is a 50% + outgoing heal debuff due to will power debuff that has no cooldown and as such can never be clensed

soul killer is irrelevant as i stated above cos WE + mara being so better as melee train and is even mroe irrelevant when you spec aoe which you will never reach healer in wb vs wb or if you reach em you re alredy winning the inc.

kobs for 2/3 tactic requrie to use 2 specific aura which are not optimaze while chosen +bo get accese to all his tool and still have 2/3 auras spot free which on warband is very good as you auras have aoe/group effect, which balance some how + moral tactic (or it should at least ) that op/crazy crit stack order have, in the specific case you go heal debuff and then you have the last jolly aura.

thats a terrible color pick as far as readability goes

[Gobtar]

Bg has numerous debuffs that aid your teammates in dealing damage.

Bg has superior defensive tools compared to the ib that allow it to remain in fights longer.

Do ib have more damage dealing tools yes.

But those tools are in the form of damage via dots, where as BGs have incoming crit debuffs, wounds debuffs, toughness debuffs. Ap drains, the ability to not be detaunted.

Stop reaching for more when your class has plenty, the grass is not greener dude.

First off the Iron Breaker has far more defensive tools than the BG does.
100% Block ability (much better than an interupptable 30s CD 50% block channel), the ability to take less damage triggered on block, block tactic that just straight up reduces damage taken, spamable armour ability, bubble vs magic, Parry buff ability AND initiative buff. Iron breaker is considered to be one of the best tanks in the game, BG are considered one of the worst. Oh and the crit reduction ability, the one thing you could say BG have over IBs...uh yeah, Kneecaper is the same exact ability.

Toughness debuff is mediocre thanks to chosen or even a mara, plus it requires hatred to even apply. Wounds debuff is far up the DPS tree, and is largely irrelevant thank to Mara or chosen...it's nice to have for sure. Yep BG have a meh AP drain...With full hate you drain 30 AP...wow...choking fury is indeed worth the mastery point, the anti detaunt is useful, but this does not mean the class doesn't need help. Last but not least, adding crit, the BG can increase crit chance, we will overlook its a 5s ability on a 10s CD that needs 2h to even use...the IB, has a 10% crit ability that stacks with both the knights tactics!

Please stop with this "grass isn't greener" bull**** I played a IB i know what the class has, I don't want the BG to be an IB, I just want it to stop being the bottom tier tank on destro...either come back with some solid facts refuting our points or stay out of the conversation. I am really tired of people nothing to add other than "Don't change anything, people play the class is it's okay"

[TenTonHammer]

Furthermore for a the things he said tesq was right about one thing

There is quite a bit of redundancy in the fact that the some of the best debuffs Bg has is out shone by Mara


I think it's really interesting after reading gobs post about Bg being the worst destro tank now, noting the shift in mentality from live about how BOs were awful tanks and Bg were the go to second tanks in 6 mans and how that is really no longer the case here because of how good stat steal is and other thing such as how strong clobber morale remove and stuff is all around making BO really good

[Gachimuchi]

Bg has numerous debuffs that aid your teammates in dealing damage.
You mean crimson death that we lose our survivability and KD for? And what else? The wounds/toughness/armor debuff that marauder can do better?
Bg has superior defensive tools compared to the ib that allow it to remain in fights longer.
You mean our channeled block% increaser(that usually gets interrupted) on a 30s cd? Or is it the toughness buff that I can assure you doesn't give us immense utility by being somewhat harder to kill.
Do ib have more damage dealing tools yes.
Damn right
But those tools are in the form of damage via dots, where as BGs have incoming crit debuffs, wounds debuffs, toughness debuffs. Ap drains, the ability to not be detaunted.
You mean force of fury? Aka useless because you're already going up the deftard tree -> going to be using snb -> nobody is going to target you anyway -> toughness buff is enough to survive whatever aoe that comes your way -> unless a bw decides to ruin your day who will kill you anyway

Stop reaching for more when your class has plenty, the grass is not greener dude.

i had a well thought out response to this hastily thought out post but it got deleted because of cloud flare so here you go

[Gobtar]

Furthermore for a the things he said tesq was right about one thing

There is quite a bit of redundancy in the fact that the some of the best debuffs Bg has is out shone by Mara


I think it's really interesting after reading gobs post about Bg being the worst destro tank now, noting the shift in mentality from live about how BOs were awful tanks and Bg were the go to second tanks in 6 mans and how that is really no longer the case here because of how good stat steal is and other thing such as how strong clobber morale remove and stuff is all around making BO really good

My mentality has not changed from live. BOs were never considered to be bad in my experiences. especially since BO had the sheer damage potential thanks to SYG and DF/WF procs. Ysmbd and Aoe snare just made the choice easier...

[Tklees]

Furthermore for a the things he said tesq was right about one thing

There is quite a bit of redundancy in the fact that the some of the best debuffs Bg has is out shone by Mara


I think it's really interesting after reading gobs post about Bg being the worst destro tank now, noting the shift in mentality from live about how BOs were awful tanks and Bg were the go to second tanks in 6 mans and how that is really no longer the case here because of how good stat steal is and other thing such as how strong clobber morale remove and stuff is all around making BO really good

but is that the BG being a bad class or the Mara being broken?