Preventing regen items from stacking with each others

[Caduceus]

So basically what you propose is to remove regen so only ib/bg/am/sham will be viable for solo roaming? People will follow the path of least resistance thus nobody en mass would be solo roaming on anything but wh/ib/bg/am/sham and maybe dps dok. WE would become bottom tier roamer of mentioned classes. This will further lead to a total collapse of solo roaming. Duo+ would be absolutely mandatory to leave the warcamp.

Well, AM/Shaman and IB/BG could do with a toning down of their solo potential if that were to happen.

But what you are saying would not happen - before the regen memes those classes were the top dogs of solo, yes, but people were actually solo roaming on all classes. Not everyone is willing to roll those classes just because they are broken in solo and I would argue they are even broken now. IB / BG not as much, because at least there's some counterplay to their lack of ranged CC.

When people roam in normal specs, the whole thing becomes a lot more skill and reaction based. This is how it used to be. It's much better balanced than what it is now.

And no, you will not see main sov/onslaught/triump mixed BWs solo roaming.

I solo roamed on a sorc a lot. Back then literally every class could be made somewhat viable in solo. I'm not looking to get back into soloing, but that things were way more balanced and open back then is a fact.

Leave regen alone, its so niche and not important at all in a general scheme of things.

I strongly disagree.

We have to understand who it is these regen memelords are fighting all day - new players (often more than one at a time), small box running groups, etc.

They are disruptive.

And if they were able to do so by virtue of impeccable skill and timing, I wouldn't even have that much of a problem with it. The issue is that the fight is already won before combat starts, because that's the nature of how regen builds work.

In my opinion, that is in itself an undesirable and unhealthy situation.

A healthy situation would be one where players do not get to win 1v3 situations by default. I keep using that term "by default", because that is what regen builds are. They aim to win fights by itemization alone - that's not something that should happen in a competitive PvP environment. By stacking more regen and defenses than what the enemy player can deliver in terms of damage, you win by default.

The irony is, regen builds aren't really capable of fighting each other due to that same mechanic. So what happens is the memelords leave each other alone in favor of poaching helpless newbies.

And that's ultimately what this is about.

[reynor007]

Have you tried to make a build that can defeat the regen build?

Oh yes, at first I thought that I could use a healing debuff. Then I learned that it does not apply on the regen from the items.

So i've come to this conclusion : my solution to counter a regen build is to stack even more regen that the opponent has, so that after 15 minutes of fighting each others one of us will die of boredom

create a separate topic where you can discuss oh how is it, imba regen, you will collect all the regeneration items for several weeks, go to rvr and die from full dps Wh, WE, magus, SW and so on
we are at different levels of understanding, I can not help you

[Fenris78]

yes, maybe then they will finally fix the toughness, which is broken for the umpteenth time
for those who do not know, with a critical hit, tough only works by 50%, from here we get that with a critical damage of 500 strength = 1000 toughness

Looks like toughness is working as intended, in fact, toughness mitigation being the first to kicks in before every other mitigations, you got a mitigation ratio of 1.30 to 2.1 (even more for classes with +crit dmg of top, like Sov bonus and BW/Sorc mechanics).

This means with 100 toughness, you effectively mitigates critical hits as if you had 130 to 210+ toughness, wich makes this stat very important.

Thats also what is making classes with absorbs and damage procs (WH/WE) especially effective, since the absorb further reduces critical damage (only remaining damage after toughnes + absorb + dmg modifiers can crit), while damage procs ignore toughness entirely (since they arent affected by strength at all).

Unless I'm mistaken, toughness is working as intended, afaik.

[reynor007]

I would like to see a counter play to def builds, like making healing debuff affect regen. There's a reason 23% of the population plays a stealth class. We/wh feels almost oppressive in rvr since the 1.5 gcd change. Slowing classes to 1.5 but not adjusting abilities damage for 1.5 has made defense builds run rampant making the game feel bad. I think we're in a weird phase between two major patches once we get a rebalance things will feel fine.

yes, maybe then they will finally fix the toughness, which is broken for the umpteenth time
for those who do not know, with a critical hit, tough only works by 50%, from here we get that with a critical damage of 500 strength = 1000 toughness

Thx the info i didnt know it. Is it a bug or a hidden not well communicated mechanic?

this is definitely a bug that no one cares about, and it will only be fixed in half a year, if at all, as it was the last time when I wrote that tough does not work on dots, it lasted more than half a year and I was assured that everything is fine

[reynor007]

Looks like toughness is working as intended, in fact, toughness mitigation being the first to kicks in before every other mitigations, you got a mitigation ratio of 1.30 to 2.1 (even more for classes with +crit dmg of top, like Sov bonus and BW/Sorc mechanics).

This means with 100 toughness, you effectively mitigates critical hits as if you had 130 to 210+ toughness, wich makes this stat very important.

Thats also what is making classes with absorbs and damage procs (WH/WE) especially effective, since the absorb further reduces critical damage (only remaining damage after toughnes + absorb + dmg modifiers can crit), while damage procs ignore toughness entirely (since they arent affected by strength at all).

Unless I'm mistaken, toughness is working as intended, afaik.

https://ibb.co/qNnvCDt

it's 0 armor only tough
first hit non-critical 310 dgm mitigation 236
second hit critical 598 dmg mitigation 360
damage increased by almost 50%, but mitigation increased by only 33%
is it really meant to be like that?

[Fenris78]

https://ibb.co/qNnvCDt

it's 0 armor only tough
first hit non-critical 310 dgm mitigation 236
second hit critical 598 dmg mitigation 360
damage increased by almost 50%, but mitigation increased by only 33%
is it really meant to be like that?

That's because toughness only apply to contributing stat portion, not the base damage of the skill.

(Damage is actually increasing by 100% in your example)

Lets say you got hit by a skill with 300 base damage, enemy str (1k) adding around 400, against your toughness (lets say 500), and your armor is mitigating about 40% of remaining damage :

- without crit, you took (300+(400*0.5)) *0.6 (armor)= 300 (instead of 420 without toughness),
- with a crit, you took (300+(400*0.5))*1.95 (crit) *0.6 (armor)= 585 (instead of 819 without toughness).
(I didnt redo the complete calcution because I dont know the scaling of the skills nor your stats, but that's around those values for your examples).

Toughness is working as intended, only reducing the part of damage that is scaled upon offensive stat.
In first case, toughness is effectively mitigating 120 damage on normal hit, and 234 damage after the critical hit, perfectly scaling with the 1.95 critical multiplier.

The more the hit is affected by offensive stat, the more it will be mitigated by toughness. In all cases, as soon there is stat contribution, the toughness is perfetly scaling with critical hits and other damage modifiers (+% damage tactics and skills/procs, since modifiers are calculated after toughness and absorb.

That's why Toughness is somehow bad to mitigate DoTs, since DoTs base damage is already high, and completely ineffective against most procs (wich are not scaled upon STR, with notable exceptions of Riposte and Jagged Edge tactics).

Against everything else, especially high critical damage (most mdps, BW/Sorc for example) toughness is doing good.

I may add, based on my tests (against a 80+ Slayer and physical damage + procs wich ignore toughness), toughness is worth slightly more than armor, talisman for talisman, (i.e. a +24 toughness is better than a +136 armor), for physical damage alone.
Since armor value is already reduced by WS, while toughness is working against all damage sources including magic damage, it makes toughness a better value than armor, at least talisman for talisman. Even against an adddamage-centered class like slayer.

The best option for everyone would be, of course, to get both very high armor AND magic resistances, but it's sadly not possible given the number of available talisman slots, at least for most dps classes.

That's why Toughness is still a good value, better slot toughness talismans to get resistance against 90% of potential damage sources, than armor or magical resistance talismans, from wich efficiency is narrower (only working against one type of damage).

[Morradin]

Tutorial on how to fight against heavy regen melee/tanks.

1- When you realize they are heavy regen specced turn and run away
2- Use FLEE followed by an AP pot in case you need to cast something defensive/healing
3- Keep your camera focused on enemy. When they stop to mount, you must stop and mount.
4- Lead them to large group of your faction to be killed, or lead them to your war camp, so they stop chasing you.
5- MOST IMPORTANT...
LOL them at every moment. When they turn away, follow at safe distance and LOL them some more.

[reynor007]

I told you it's hard to explain
just like it was a few years ago
https://github.com/WarEmu/WarBugs/issues/13978
I will not try to convince you, as I tried to prove it to everyone on the server that time, just someday, a patch will be released, and everything will become obvious

[nocturnalguest]

But what you are saying would not happen - before the regen memes those classes were the top dogs of solo, yes, but people were actually solo roaming on all classes. Not everyone is willing to roll those classes just because they are broken in solo and I would argue they are even broken now. IB / BG not as much, because at least there's some counterplay to their lack of ranged CC.

When people roam in normal specs, the whole thing becomes a lot more skill and reaction based. This is how it used to be. It's much better balanced than what it is now.

It definitely will, but may i remind you that back then there was a meaning in campaign - push forts/city, there were no weekly grind, no unified currency. At the moment there is just a grind, endless grind and players focus to minimize the efforts while maximizing the gains thus its "zergier" and "blobbier" than ever.
Also a small correction, IB does have 65ft range root as M1.
Well, regen or not it still stays the same - skill and reaction wins a fight, regen just raises TTK. But nothing changed in regards of skills&reaction. You can build/spec regen or whatever but e.g. volgograd, mdpv, insolence and other famous roamers win fights not because build but because of close to perfect GCD management. Build does play a role of course, but its not the only and most benefiting factor even. Crucial one - yes. Without regen TTK is much lower, its less time to react, however i dont see how its "much better balanced", at the moment selfsustain wins, you "suggest" to turn it around but the only option would be burst, so burst would be winning. I just see the technical turn around for reasons like "just because". If things were just as they were before than it would be absolutely technical meta shift, however things are not like they were before.
I personally did love game more in a previous era (especially once conq was top tier gear) but in situation we are now i strongly believe that regen nerf would just cause further decrease in people solo roaming as this playstyle would become much lesser attractive. Less sustain, more deaths, less fun.

I solo roamed on a sorc a lot. Back then literally every class could be made somewhat viable in solo. I'm not looking to get back into soloing, but that things were way more balanced and open back then is a fact.

Yes i know. Had a pleasure meeting you in the lakes. And i be honest few times i wasnt prepared enough to meet a sorc roaming solo nor was i in regen builds btw
Respect.
However "more balanced and open" part i could explain with many other changes beside regen.

I strongly disagree.

We have to understand who it is these regen memelords are fighting all day - new players (often more than one at a time), small box running groups, etc.

They are disruptive.

And if they were able to do so by virtue of impeccable skill and timing, I wouldn't even have that much of a problem with it. The issue is that the fight is already won before combat starts, because that's the nature of how regen builds work.

In my opinion, that is in itself an undesirable and unhealthy situation.

A healthy situation would be one where players do not get to win 1v3 situations by default. I keep using that term "by default", because that is what regen builds are. They aim to win fights by itemization alone - that's not something that should happen in a competitive PvP environment. By stacking more regen and defenses than what the enemy player can deliver in terms of damage, you win by default.

The irony is, regen builds aren't really capable of fighting each other due to that same mechanic. So what happens is the memelords leave each other alone in favor of poaching helpless newbies.

And that's ultimately what this is about.

I do agree that people are looking for the prey they can take. But i dont feel any pity for it to be noobs without pots, low levels etc. Back then i tried ESO and first time entered Cyrodiil i was raped so hard that it took me quite some dedication to learn pvp in that game enough to dont be a total cannon fodder. And here they should do so as well. Instead of game balance to be shoehorned for them to not suffer and continue being noobs. Those who dont try to learn what killed them and how, dont try to understand the counter and embrace it should really consider if such PvP game fits them.
Most problem comes with this phrase i guess: "than what the enemy player can deliver in terms of damage, you win by default". While being technically true its the problem of those who dont deliver enough burst to bring down solo specced roamer. This game mechanics are pretty unfriendly and so many crucial information is missing in the open media space that on practice we encounter situations than 1 guy can create a burst of 10k on engi using only AoE skills with real build on dummy and the other struggle really hard to make 5k burst.
Mind you, toptier roamers wont escape from proper burst in 1vX situations. They will just die in case they got caught unluckily, no matter regen, escape tools etc. Thus they avoid players and encounters they do know they wont win. Thats logical and proper behaviour called "know your enemy, pick your fights well".
Regen builds aren't really capable of fighting each other due to that same mechanic is also true. But memelords leaving each other alone in favor of poaching helpless newbies is also totally logical and proper behaviour. People play to have fun, who would consider endless duel as fun?
Do noobs have options? Yes, of course, learn what killed you, learn names. Dont engage it in same conditions, dont repeat mistakes. Go back to a drawing board with your build, ask questions here/in-game/discord. People here are pretty open sharing builds/videos whatever. Its no esport and stuff.
And to conclude, i do believe that its healthy situation for PvP MMO. Its the same everywhere else but Little Pony Adventures Online.

So why do you put a blame on players for that? I dont see it as justified anyhow

[reynor007]

The irony is, regen builds aren't really capable of fighting each other due to that same mechanic. So what happens is the memelords leave each other alone in favor of poaching helpless newbies.

you are very much mistaken, probably due to the fact that you have never played regeneration, if you know what to do, any build of regeneration is easily killed, tell me any name player in regen on the server and wait it in the next video
this will be a fight with a commentary, I will tell you in full what needs to be done to defeat the regen assembly