Return of Reckoning

saiho wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:45 amAlso agree with this, been saying it for a long time Magus is arguably the best 1v1 class in the entire game

Yes a well played Magus is for example much better solo class than the white lion, everything is on the menu except SnB tanks. As seen in the video when controlled by a good/geared player , they melt white lions as with any mdps with easy. It is the best solo destro class, maybe only the Archmage can match it but i doubt it when played by the top players.

The issue is that Magus takes a bit more learning and skill to play so many players do not realize this. Magus is on different tier compared to WL for solo.

White lion on the other hand is very punishing vs less good players or casuals/undergeared players, since the frontload burst and mobility is high. This is why destruction players always hated on the class, since it is the only one that counters their beloved dps Shaman kite/dot/run spam. As we know, a respectable % of the destro population plays shaman.

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There are currently two legitimate complain about the WL, everything else the devs are wise to ignore.

1) AOE dps in loner spec. In the context of nerfed slayers etc. It could be brought down a notch, for example let the spin be 180 instead of 360. Bring it on par with mara ability.

2) Pet speed, i've always tought 50% was excessive, 30% should suffice. However it is equal important that devs realize this shouldn't be a tactic, but base speed of the pet, Why? Because without the tactic pet just isn't viable. A tactic should never be mandatory for core class gameplay(Pet is the core, loner the band-aid fix due to Pets struggling in RvR)

nocturnalguest wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 7:21 am

Farrul wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 6:49 am

Kylashandra wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 7:12 pmYes, WL is the epitome of what is wrong with the game right now

What is epitome of what is wrong with the ''game'' right now?

1) Stale boring campaign. This has been killing the spirit of the game for a long time.

2) Scenarios, devs need to fix them.

3) Nerf paradigm, the game has become less fun over the last couple of years due to the class nerfs. Nerfing WL will not fix anything, it will only add to this issue. Devs should be looking at empowering classes, bring back the fun, not nerf everything to mediocre.

4) Lack of new content ( since the ability patch has been ''rebuilding everything''). We need the new dungeon, lotd etc and stuff like these.

Great summary btw, literally a priority list

I'd add that approach for balancing was/is (not set on "is" atm as i dont know design plan or what are they working on) very dull too, to me (besides recent RP/zealot changes with rituals, alas mentioning that whole patch as a good example is pretty dumb either, cause for no reason Rune of Battle has been nerfed same patch) it was a course of oversimplification, many things have been cut out, outliner abilities are unified, alot has been done what i would call #NoFunAllowed.
Whirling Axe and Furious Stomping are the greatest examples of bad design atm. Need way less of those and more of smart situational decision demanding things.

Furious Stomping is literally copy paste skill of Devour Essence, except Fs is hitting 24 people instead of 4 people and doesnt heal ofc. If De Would hit 24 people, everyone would be complaining about dps doks. If people are not grasping this im yet again blaming 24 ae cap which doesnt make any sense. Return it to 9aoe cap again pls.

If Whirling Axe Didnt have 25% armour pene, buffed to 360 degrees(lol) instead of 180degrees and hitting 24 people no one would complain about it. Healers grp healing/grp cleansing does it to 6 people in 1 use. If you change grp heal to heal everyone in warband so 24 instead of 6 then 24 cap would make sense, i mean not really but you probably understand my point.

nocturnalguest wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 7:21 amGreat summary btw, literally a priority list

I'd add that approach for balancing was/is (not set on "is" atm as i dont know design plan or what are they working on) very dull too, to me (besides recent RP/zealot changes with rituals, alas mentioning that whole patch as a good example is pretty dumb either, cause for no reason Rune of Battle has been nerfed same patch) it was a course of oversimplification, many things have been cut out, outliner abilities are unified, alot has been done what i would call #NoFunAllowed.
Whirling Axe and Furious Stomping are the greatest examples of bad design atm. Need way less of those and more of smart situational decision demanding things.

Yes, i believe if the devs did balance with a different mindset, everything would feel fun/empowered and we wouldn't complain so much about the classes at all, since everyone is havin a good time. Except for a few outliers in the past i believe the classes overall felt much better 3-4 years ago in this regard.

I agree Whirling Axe and Furious Stomping are good examples of abilities making the game less fun. Imho this AOE spam, makes the game less interesting, hence why i was vocal about the WP dps change, this is a good example of a class/spec design being a lot more interesting before the rework.

Sinisterror wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 7:30 am Furious Stomping is literally copy paste skill of Devour Essence, except Fs is hitting 24 people instead of 4 people and doesnt heal ofc. If De Would hit 24 people, everyone would be complaining about dps doks. If people are not grasping this im yet again blaming 24 ae cap which doesnt make any sense. Return it to 9aoe cap again pls.

If Whirling Axe Didnt have 25% armour pene, buffed to 360 degrees(lol) instead of 180degrees and hitting 24 people no one would complain about it. Healers grp healing/grp cleansing does it to 6 people in 1 use. If you change grp heal to heal everyone in warband so 24 instead of 6 then 24 cap would make sense, i mean not really but you probably understand my point.

Yeah, surely i got your point as you explained yourself numerous times on a matter True about DE, true about WA (would also add the amount of hits and procs it produces), what i'd love to comment and discuss further is your ideologically correct point about caps and healing.

I strongly believe that cap of either 9 or 24 ALONE is unsignificant. Problem and main issue is that it neither balanced for 9 nor for 24. If next day cap is changed into 9 WITHOUT other adjustments result would be terrible. May i remind that has been EXACTLY such experiment already during an event for farming rings - if you dont recall how awful it was, how much whine there has been you can look up on forums (iirc it was previous year) or let me know i may find it for you.
So, the main points are (or should be imo) actually the following things:
- there are no tools to fight blobs if you are not a blob yourself (e.g. back then T3 was cap there has been really awesome aoe cannon experiment, everything more than 24 would be annihilated on sight but back then many didnt like it, i believe that previous knowledge could be used and adjusted for nowdays problems);
- there are no design plan for abilities performance nor for 9 cap nor for 24 cap (there is no logical ruleset or theory model of how fights should look like on a scale of 200/300 vs 200/300 and thus abilities are more or less reviewed on much smaller scale of up from 6v6 mostly, alot of stuff is done "as-is" to keep it balanced for 6v6, while majority of players activity in this game is actually blob vs blob of 200 vs 200);
- healing caps is not accounted nor for 9 cap nor for 24.
Those above are the balance tasks that need to be carefully, qualifiedly discussed, reviewed, tested out and redone. Or, the other approach is a complete oRvR design/mechanic revamp, which i believe is way more difficult to do and way more time demanding (not even mentioning that to each his own, it will always, inevitably turn away half of current population no matter what you do and how cool new design gonna be).

Farrul wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 7:38 am Yes, i believe if the devs did balance with a different mindset, everything would feel fun/empowered and we wouldn't complain so much about the classes at all, since everyone is havin a good time. Except for a few outliers in the past i believe the classes overall felt much better 3-4 years ago in this regard.

I agree Whirling Axe and Furious Stomping are good examples of abilities making the game less fun. Imho this AOE spam, makes the game less interesting, hence why i was vocal about the WP dps change, this is a good example of a class/spec design being a lot more interesting before the rework.

Yeah, nice mention, WP/DoK dps change goes into same bin. Sure, they perform now much better (just like Choppa with FS or WL with WA), but gameplay itself is just... snb kotbs alike!

Lol 2 weeks of reverting aoe cap without morale dmg cap removal,removing undefendable guard dmg(except morales) giving 50% aoe HD's back, Changing GCD back to 1.15s AND returning hyper potential CC and Crit etc all of that. All that is needed to this game to function properly, imo=)

Yes changin ae cap alone wont make a difference. The problems are much deeper

All the time in any online game you meet "meta", if game has an active support - meta changes from time to time and repeat same story - some classes is popular, some isn't.

Current state(by stats from maartenson.net, WE/WH out the scope):
- destro outsiders is magus, sorc; other dps have good spread.
- order outsiders is BW, engi, slayer; top - #1 WL #2 SW with good gap after WL.

4 from 6 rdps are unpopular - doesn't looks like range meta.

Mara-Choppa almost equal pick.
WL-Slayers almost x2 difference, some problem exists maybe slayer too bad maybe opposite.

Bigger current issue - why most rdps unpopular and better to try solve this before changes for wl-slayer-mara-choppa.

P.S. according to some comments about GCD - anyone with cast time 1.5sec+ got "dps buff", if so - why rdps unpopular?

tefnaht wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 11:35 am All the time in any online game you meet "meta", if game has an active support - meta changes from time to time and repeat same story - some classes is popular, some isn't.

Current state(by stats from maartenson.net, WE/WH out the scope):
- destro outsiders is magus, sorc; other dps have good spread.
- order outsiders is BW, engi, slayer; top - #1 WL #2 SW with good gap after WL.

4 from 6 rdps are unpopular - doesn't looks like range meta.

Mara-Choppa almost equal pick.
WL-Slayers almost x2 difference, some problem exists maybe slayer too bad maybe opposite.

Bigger current issue - why most rdps unpopular and better to try solve this before changes for wl-slayer-mara-choppa.

P.S. according to some comments about GCD - anyone with cast time 1.5sec+ got "dps buff", if so - why rdps unpopular?

Context matters. Groups and individuals typical gameplay and behaviour matters. You cant just get stats and draw conclusions from there without those two. Players seeking fun is your explanation here and an answer.
Examples are:
- SW is a perfect blob/zerg surfer, ideal to pug around. Go ahead and surf/pug as BW or slayer, gl&hf
- RDPS kite group are more demanding for position, movement and playstyle, they are actually much harder to build up competetively. This do requeres much more skill and awarness from a player then typical melee focused 200v200 "press W and 1, kill stuff and enjoy your beer, sir"
- current slayer state is way more demanding to reach proper results (is still possible btw, its killing power is still there, just as deadly as it was, but lesser fluff (aka pressure) now), hence everyone is choosing a path of least resistance and again this leads into high WL population cause "press W and 1, kill stuff and enjoy your beer, sir"

In regards to range meta, the meme is pretty old, but there are only very very few groups of ~12-18 skilled experienced players who sometimes runs RDPS groups because those are independant of blobs, are best to farm AAO and produce way more kills if played properly in any conditions.
Pugs cant build up proper RDPS groups that will provide kills, fun and overcome blobs. Because its way more skillful gameplay assuming we consider succes and not just going into orvr lakes and dying there. This simple.

Noslock wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 5:23 pm

Parallels66 wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 3:39 pm

saiho wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:41 am

Sounds like a skill issue I cant lie, healing numbers are stupidly high in this game already and if you have a semi competent healer you can take on the world, cant even begin to describe how many 2v5+s ive won with having a skilled healer next to me

LMAO i have full armor talis, 9k+ hp, -20% to be crit etc. WL still auto attacks me for 1200+. WL and 2h slayer are the only classes to be able to kill me in a 1v1. WL doesnt even have a heal debuff lmao. literally 100% uptime class. i get 100-20% hp in a single WL knockdown essentially in a full tank setup. WL is absurd. there is a reason everyone and their nan is playing one at the current. why WBs are stacking them, why every solo roam order you see is a WL. they counter every single class except 2h regen tanks and even then can just walk away. absolute meme class.

If a single wl can kill your tank 1v1 you r doing something wrong.

Agreed, good 2h tank or snb Chosen may beat almost all WLs 1v1

Battlefield wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 5:17 pm

Noslock wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 5:23 pm

Parallels66 wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 3:39 pm

LMAO i have full armor talis, 9k+ hp, -20% to be crit etc. WL still auto attacks me for 1200+. WL and 2h slayer are the only classes to be able to kill me in a 1v1. WL doesnt even have a heal debuff lmao. literally 100% uptime class. i get 100-20% hp in a single WL knockdown essentially in a full tank setup. WL is absurd. there is a reason everyone and their nan is playing one at the current. why WBs are stacking them, why every solo roam order you see is a WL. they counter every single class except 2h regen tanks and even then can just walk away. absolute meme class.

If a single wl can kill your tank 1v1 you r doing something wrong.

Agreed, good 2h tank or snb Chosen may beat almost all WLs 1v1

If you're 2H meme tank a Guardian spec can kill you. I died last week to one when I was running full DPS tank (no buff pots, etc.) But any regen tank build 2H or S/B roaming solo WL's aren't a problem. Then again, they just run away from you like most can.

Someone should just make a big spreadsheet with all the basics of abilities across the top (e.g., Gap Closer - Pounce, Gap Closer - AOE Snare, Gap Closer - ST Snare, Heal Debuff - ST, Heal Debuff - AOE, Armor Debuff - ST, Armor Debuff - AOE, etc.) and a row for each class. What you discover, a lot of the OG know this by playing for a long time, is that of all the classes, the WL has the most check boxes of any class and the WL can get the most with each build.

Battlefield wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 5:17 pm

Noslock wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 5:23 pm

Parallels66 wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 3:39 pm

LMAO i have full armor talis, 9k+ hp, -20% to be crit etc. WL still auto attacks me for 1200+. WL and 2h slayer are the only classes to be able to kill me in a 1v1. WL doesnt even have a heal debuff lmao. literally 100% uptime class. i get 100-20% hp in a single WL knockdown essentially in a full tank setup. WL is absurd. there is a reason everyone and their nan is playing one at the current. why WBs are stacking them, why every solo roam order you see is a WL. they counter every single class except 2h regen tanks and even then can just walk away. absolute meme class.

If a single wl can kill your tank 1v1 you r doing something wrong.

Agreed, good 2h tank or snb Chosen may beat almost all WLs 1v1

Actually cant because wl can just run away