Cooldown decreasing abilities - let's bring the balance

[NSKaneda]

Spoiler:

Tested in scs&orvr, works and stops destro melee ball, just one of the possible setups.

AM Blinding Light (+debuffs, slow downs, aoe ap drain, the whole package). You can combine it with snares (skill and morale), IB furious reprisal, engie dazzling flash + turret spam and add To Victory! or shatter limbs (depending on situation) on top of it, WH, KOTBS & AM morale pumps'n'drains and overall order m2 coordinated bomb drop.

There's a reason why order has offensive m2 setup while destro m2 is focused on surviving in melee ball.

Paper PvP desperate attempt.

If only I had tested it on my order chars...

Yes “heavily” coordinated Order WB will beat a organized destro WB or more skilled. However if player skill are par on both sides or pug vs pug, the city scores speak for themselves. It’s just easier to ball without talent rather than do everything you listed. Maybe one or two warbands will do what you listed in coordination and yes they’ll win. Need to factor in casuals as well from both sides and having balanced fights. A simple melee ball shouldn’t require rocket science PvP.

That's the thing: in pug vs (semi)premade organized wins 9/10. Balancing around pugs is about as viable as balancing around 1vs1 (or 6v6 for that matter) - pugs simply do not have coordination, line up and synergy to pull off effective stratagems.

Simple melee ball should not require rocket science to counter, same as order's range play - fortunately, they are quite easy to counter even with pugs. Countering voice-coordinated melee ball however requires more than simple "Khazukan Kazakit Ha" clobbering time and this is where coordinated morale game comes into play.

Spoiler:

I agree that Gromril's plating should never have been nerfed, removing group utility from this morale is a serious blow to order morale game.
Most of m3s are root and brake or fast recovery on both sides but order has few m3s that are good at instakilling focused targets (again, something that is not mirrored to des who focus more on recovery and AP management at this stage). Slayer m3 + WH witchfinder's protection + engie Cannon Smash + SM Bladeshield in dedicated ST focus party.

8 times out of 10 it's gonna be brake and recover situation but there are options if your side has the advantage of winning m2 stage.


All of the above should come into play after using normal skillset ofc.

It's rare that those Morales you listed will be better than a Distracting Bellows and Order has next to no Morale builders while Destro has 4-5 additional viable ones. Likewise Bladeshield is not really a defensive morale, the Slayer version works on one target, and Cannon Smash debuffs less armor than Zealot M1 Tzeentch's Talon does. It also doesn't debuff resists like the Zealot M1, but of course it lasts twice the time and does some damage (which is not that significant vs a Stage 3 champ)

If you want to insta kill people Talon + any kind of focus especially Squig M1 with Frenzy will do the trick, and since both have exceptional morale builders with possible Shammy support they will get to M1 almost instantly.

That's the thing: you don't need 4 blinding lights to do the trick - one is enough, two are playing it on the safe side. Same with m3 ST focus - one dedicated party, not whole warband. Ofc you want tanks with Distracting Bellow. Sure, Cannon smash might not do as much as TTalon - but when you are at m3 stage your buffs and debuffs come into play and that Zealot is highly unlikely to use m1 then.

M1 game is more of a small scale roaming thing + behind the lines ST focus. At least in my book

[Gurf]

pls, list all CD IN- and DEcreasers for both factions

thank you in advance

Destro:

CD Increasers
Black Orc - Not in Da Face - Single Target, 10/20s uptime, Da Toughest x9
Choppa - Tired Already? - Single Target, 10/20s uptime, Da Hitta' x9
Squig Herder - Bad Gas! - 40 Frontal on High Mobility Class, 10/20s uptime, Bouncin x9

CD Reducer
Black Orc - Mor Choppin' Dem - No Target Required, 10/20s uptime, Da Boss x13 and x11 Tactic
Choppa - Chop Fasta! - No Target Required, 20/40s uptime, Da Wrecka x9


Order:

CD Increasers
IB - Shield of Reprisal - Single Target, Requires Shield, Requires Defense, 5/10s uptime, Path of Stone x3 Tactic
Slayer - Shatter Limbs - 30 Foot Point-blank, 10/20s uptime, Skavenslayer x9

CD Reducer
SM - Whispering Winds - Target Required, Hit Required, Melee Range Required, Gives Immunity, 10/20s uptime, Path of Hoeth x13

It is pretty clear that there is a big disparity, two of Orders have requirements, no aoe decreasers on Demand and overall less in total.

Even if you wanted to try and argue Order gets better increaser because you can combine Shattered Limbs with Rampage, I would argue against that firstly because SH increaser is 40ft while Slayer is 30ft, SH is much more mobile to get in and out of key areas to use it, but also because those abilities were nerfed so now they only increase between 1-3 seconds, so now after nerf they aren't a direct counter to the 5 second decreaser.

The balance would have been to never give it to the BO in the first place, or to give it to BO and swap Chop Fasta with a damage ability (which is probably what a lot of Choppas would prefer). To have 2 on demand decreasers for Destro is far too much. The ideal balance would be for both sides to have it in a similar situation to Whispering Wind so it requires teamplay and communication to use most effectively, but I don't see them nerfing Destro any time soon to make this a reality, so at the very least Whispering Winds should be made undefendable. If you gave one more aoe Cooldown decreaser to Order to balance it I would expect quite quickly you would have to remove one from both sides, as Destro would suddenly realise how powerful these are as Order City win rate shoots up to parity.

[Sofong]

bg is fine, lacks abit wb support but its fine.

[NSKaneda]

pls, list all CD IN- and DEcreasers for both factions

thank you in advance

Destro:

CD Increasers
Black Orc - Not in Da Face - Single Target, 10/20s uptime, Da Toughest x9
Choppa - Tired Already? - Single Target, 10/20s uptime, Da Hitta' x9
Squig Herder - Bad Gas! - 40 Frontal on High Mobility Class, 10/20s uptime, Bouncin x9

CD Reducer
Black Orc - Mor Choppin' Dem - No Target Required, 10/20s uptime, Da Boss x13 and x11 Tactic
Choppa - Chop Fasta! - No Target Required, 20/40s uptime, Da Wrecka x9


Order:

CD Increasers
IB - Shield of Reprisal - Single Target, Requires Shield, Requires Defense, 5/10s uptime, Path of Stone x3 Tactic
Slayer - Shatter Limbs - 30 Foot Point-blank, 10/20s uptime, Skavenslayer x9

CD Reducer
SM - Whispering Winds - Target Required, Hit Required, Melee Range Required, Gives Immunity, 10/20s uptime, Path of Hoeth x13

Plus:
Blinding Light (AM m2)
Frenzied Slaughter (all mdps m4)

And that's not taking AP increase/decreasers into account which effectively slow opponents down as well or BW/KOTBS m4 morale drains (destro only have Vision of Torment + hah, morale pumps to counter this).

[Kabuco]

Spoiler:

pls, list all CD IN- and DEcreasers for both factions

thank you in advance

Destro:

CD Increasers
Black Orc - Not in Da Face - Single Target, 10/20s uptime, Da Toughest x9
Choppa - Tired Already? - Single Target, 10/20s uptime, Da Hitta' x9
Squig Herder - Bad Gas! - 40 Frontal on High Mobility Class, 10/20s uptime, Bouncin x9

CD Reducer
Black Orc - Mor Choppin' Dem - No Target Required, 10/20s uptime, Da Boss x13 and x11 Tactic
Choppa - Chop Fasta! - No Target Required, 20/40s uptime, Da Wrecka x9


Order:

CD Increasers
IB - Shield of Reprisal - Single Target, Requires Shield, Requires Defense, 5/10s uptime, Path of Stone x3 Tactic
Slayer - Shatter Limbs - 30 Foot Point-blank, 10/20s uptime, Skavenslayer x9

CD Reducer
SM - Whispering Winds - Target Required, Hit Required, Melee Range Required, Gives Immunity, 10/20s uptime, Path of Hoeth x13

Plus:
Blinding Light (AM m2)
Frenzied Slaughter (all mdps m4)

And that's not taking AP increase/decreasers into account which effectively slow opponents down as well or BW/KOTBS m4 morale drains (destro only have Vision of Torment + hah, morale pumps to counter this).

Blinding Light has NOTHING to to with Cooldowns it increases the BUILD UP TIME.
If you are ever in the spot where you actually use Frenzied Slaughter you are doing something wrong, so this CD decreasers are pure theoretically.

for the other stuff pls stay on topic of CD manipulation stuff.

[NSKaneda]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Destro:

CD Increasers
Black Orc - Not in Da Face - Single Target, 10/20s uptime, Da Toughest x9
Choppa - Tired Already? - Single Target, 10/20s uptime, Da Hitta' x9
Squig Herder - Bad Gas! - 40 Frontal on High Mobility Class, 10/20s uptime, Bouncin x9

CD Reducer
Black Orc - Mor Choppin' Dem - No Target Required, 10/20s uptime, Da Boss x13 and x11 Tactic
Choppa - Chop Fasta! - No Target Required, 20/40s uptime, Da Wrecka x9


Order:

CD Increasers
IB - Shield of Reprisal - Single Target, Requires Shield, Requires Defense, 5/10s uptime, Path of Stone x3 Tactic
Slayer - Shatter Limbs - 30 Foot Point-blank, 10/20s uptime, Skavenslayer x9

CD Reducer
SM - Whispering Winds - Target Required, Hit Required, Melee Range Required, Gives Immunity, 10/20s uptime, Path of Hoeth x13

Plus:
Blinding Light (AM m2)
Frenzied Slaughter (all mdps m4)

And that's not taking AP increase/decreasers into account which effectively slow opponents down as well or BW/KOTBS m4 morale drains (destro only have Vision of Torment + hah, morale pumps to counter this).

Blinding Light has NOTHING to to with Cooldowns it increases the BUILD UP TIME.
If you are ever in the spot where you actually use Frenzied Slaughter you are doing something wrong, so this CD decreasers are pure theoretically.

for the other stuff pls stay on topic of CD manipulation stuff.

Yeah, we've been down this road before, sorry.

[emiliorv]

bg is fine, lacks abit wb support but its fine.

Hey mate dont try to stop "the order guy" to make bg better...hes making it for destro benefit...there is any bad intentions to try to hurt his opposite realm. OP is a pure soul trying to make his opponents a more balanced realm....
We have to be thankful that he illuminates our path, I really don't know how we could spend all these years with such an unbalanced realm.

[emiliorv]

Spoiler:

Tested in scs&orvr, works and stops destro melee ball, just one of the possible setups.

AM Blinding Light (+debuffs, slow downs, aoe ap drain, the whole package). You can combine it with snares (skill and morale), IB furious reprisal, engie dazzling flash + turret spam and add To Victory! or shatter limbs (depending on situation) on top of it, WH, KOTBS & AM morale pumps'n'drains and overall order m2 coordinated bomb drop.

There's a reason why order has offensive m2 setup while destro m2 is focused on surviving in melee ball.

Yes “heavily” coordinated Order WB will beat a organized destro WB or more skilled.

you have nailed => at same level of coordination/skill/gear-RR order wb will beat a destro wb.

Trying to balance a PUG vs premade issue is what made that premade vs premade is unbalanced right now.

Until we know any sort of data about how ppl queue for cities the scores means nothing.

[teiloh]

That's the thing: you don't need 4 blinding lights to do the trick - one is enough, two are playing it on the safe side. Same with m3 ST focus - one dedicated party, not whole warband. Ofc you want tanks with Distracting Bellow. Sure, Cannon smash might not do as much as TTalon - but when you are at m3 stage your buffs and debuffs come into play and that Zealot is highly unlikely to use m1 then.

M1 game is more of a small scale roaming thing + behind the lines ST focus. At least in my book

Blinding Light is situationally quite good but its duration limits it enough that it does not stand out above any other M2. You're unlikely to ever have 4 AMs with Blinding Light, which will seriously gimp your Healing/Protection.

[Spellbound]

That's the thing: you don't need 4 blinding lights to do the trick - one is enough, two are playing it on the safe side. Same with m3 ST focus - one dedicated party, not whole warband. Ofc you want tanks with Distracting Bellow. Sure, Cannon smash might not do as much as TTalon - but when you are at m3 stage your buffs and debuffs come into play and that Zealot is highly unlikely to use m1 then.

M1 game is more of a small scale roaming thing + behind the lines ST focus. At least in my book

Blinding Light is situationally quite good but its duration limits it enough that it does not stand out above any other M2. You're unlikely to ever have 4 AMs with Blinding Light, which will seriously gimp your Healing/Protection.

Exactly. Why I call it Paper PvP. No one in their right mind will run 4 AMs in an organized warband when RP/WP are supreme right now until RoR gives AM some healing love to be included. EOV + WW is their saving grace, but not many perform at that level, so many just pass by on AMs.