Return of Reckoning

zabis wrote:

nydig wrote:I wish there was a dmg taken stat so i could point to it as proof that i get way to much focus.

Didnt you people get the memo WE sucks now focus / ap drain someone else.

In the mod DaScore, it even shows how much each player damaged you, that way you'll know who hates you the most. It also saves every scenario stat screen for later reference.

Ill have to check it out, but im assuming its just for you right? Wont show how much everyome else took that sc? Kind of a relative thing i think since if i took 100k and everyone took more then i didnt take much. :p

th3gatekeeper wrote:
I dont see why you wouldnt be for this. I think it STARTS with a "tank stat" that allows tanks to feel important. I think second you TRY and see if you can remove self healing from the "total healing" stat. renaming it "healing on allies". Then finally if POSSIBLE remove "damage" on a player that didnt actually die. It will show the actual amount you contributed towards that persons death. 2H tanks might not like what they see, less Bomb BWs in SCs... Maybe even less DPS healers as well since I know a TON of their damage actually doesnt end up killing players (well.. lets not get into that point).

I thought the reason people ask for Mitigation stats in SC chart was so tanks could practice and improve their guard-swapping skills. "Feel Important"? Really?

Healing on allies only? What if the enemy group decides to only focus your one healer, and he manages to kite and heal himself for the whole SC, giving victory to your group? His healing will show as 0, does that mean he didn't contribute?

Remove damage on a player that didn't die? What if I attack a WP for 10 minutes (he is not dying), i'm not assisting my group, and in the last minute my team focuses the WP and kills it. They probably did 5k-7k damage to him while i did 50k during the whole SC. Does that mean i contributed more to my team? Even if i wasn't assisting them on easier targets?

I'm sorry but these are bad suggestions.

Penril wrote:

th3gatekeeper wrote:
I dont see why you wouldnt be for this. I think it STARTS with a "tank stat" that allows tanks to feel important. I think second you TRY and see if you can remove self healing from the "total healing" stat. renaming it "healing on allies". Then finally if POSSIBLE remove "damage" on a player that didnt actually die. It will show the actual amount you contributed towards that persons death. 2H tanks might not like what they see, less Bomb BWs in SCs... Maybe even less DPS healers as well since I know a TON of their damage actually doesnt end up killing players (well.. lets not get into that point).

I thought the reason people ask for Mitigation stats in SC chart was so tanks could practice and improve their guard-swapping skills. "Feel Important"? Really?

Healing on allies only? What if the enemy group decides to only focus your one healer, and he manages to kite and heal himself for the whole SC, giving victory to your group? His healing will show as 0, does that mean he didn't contribute?

Remove damage on a player that didn't die? What if I attack a WP for 10 minutes (he is not dying), i'm not assisting my group, and in the last minute my team focuses the WP and kills it. They probably did 5k-7k damage to him while i did 50k during the whole SC. Does that mean i contributed more to my team? Even if i wasn't assisting them on easier targets?

I'm sorry but these are bad suggestions.

"What if the enemy group decides to only focus your one healer, and he manages to kite and heal himself for the whole SC" happens maybe 1 of every 100 matches? So you resort to extreme examples to shoot down suggestions that would benefit 99% of the play because in SOME situations it woudlnt reflect the "contribution" LOL.... You are right... Lets leave it as is because the current system has NO issues whatsoever.... Tanks dont try and DPS, healers dont try and DPS, Hyrbid classes response REALLY well too when you try and ask for guard... RIIIIIIGHT

Im sorry this just reminds me of welfare reform and people show compelling issues as to why the CURRENT system is broken, the left takes 1 extreme example of some mother of 5 who is single pulling down 2 part time jobs to try and make ends meat and says "this is why we need welfare" - ignoring ALL the points that were made, playing on emotion, and getting any reform shut down.

If you attack a WP for 10 minutes and he doesnt die - your doing it wrong. Sorry man.... Thats just a fact. You should be coordinating CC/Burst/heal depression etc, not mindlessly beating a WP for 10 minutes doing 50k damage. you SHOULD have next to zero "contribution" for that because your team did all the work. Sure you put 'pressure" on the healer to keep himself up and not his team but that alone does nothing and if your "pressuring" this means you actually have decent DPS to put pressure and I would wager that DPS would be better used in a burst environment towards a focused target... But thats just me...

Agree to disagree I guess. I have put my position out here, people can make of it what they will. It seems Az said stuff like this is not possible anyways so its all moot.

th3gatekeeper wrote:
"What if the enemy group decides to only focus your one healer, and he manages to kite and heal himself for the whole SC" happens maybe 1 of every 100 matches? So you resort to extreme examples to shoot down suggestions that would benefit 99% of the play because in SOME situations it woudlnt reflect the "contribution" LOL.... You are right... Lets leave it as is because the current system has NO issues whatsoever.... Tanks dont try and DPS, healers dont try and DPS, Hyrbid classes response REALLY well too when you try and ask for guard... RIIIIIIGHT

BS. In many SC's, enemies go for your healers. And healers will, ofc, heal themselves. With your system, this healing wouldn't be considered.

Yes, i don't see any issues whatsoever with the current SC stat window because it's just numbers. You think changing those numbers will magically make people improve their gameplay. I see no relation between one and the other.

th3gatekeeper wrote: If you attack a WP for 10 minutes and he doesnt die - your doing it wrong. Sorry man.... Thats just a fact. You should be coordinating CC/Burst/heal depression etc, not mindlessly beating a WP for 10 minutes doing 50k damage. you SHOULD have next to zero "contribution" for that because your team did all the work. Sure you put 'pressure" on the healer to keep himself up and not his team but that alone does nothing and if your "pressuring" this means you actually have decent DPS to put pressure and I would wager that DPS would be better used in a burst environment towards a focused target... But thats just me...

You failed spectacularly at understanding my example. So much that you pretty much agreed with me that your suggestion was bad and didn't even notice it.

Let me explain again: In your system, you only count damage done to players that die. Let's assume people are assisting each other but the Choppa in their group is attacking a guarded WP. The group is trying to kill easier targets (SW, WL, etc) but without the Choppa's damage (who is still attacking the guarded WP) they can't kill anything. Finally, they decide to attack the Choppa's target (the guarded WP) and they manage to kill him. Since this was the only player who died, only the damage done to him will be considered. And since the Choppa was attacking him for a while, he will have like 50k damage on him while his group will have like 1-3k. With the system you suggest, the MVP of the SC would be the Choppa. In reality, the Choppa was the worst player because he NEVER assisted his other teammates. Do you get it now?

I actually am growing to like Penril. He's the kinda know it all douche you love to have on your team but hate to play against. Not an insult, and that type of person really is hard to find lol. I do understand why you are balance moderator. You are so fixed on "the good ol live days" that I bet it takes some serious time/effort to get anything by you.

Truly an entertaining individual. Almost like that bad guy who you want to hate because he drives you insane as he can never let go of how things used to be, but you know his heart is in the right place.

I might even add a "freshour's law" - the longer a productive balance change/mechanic discussion grows, Penril blueballing it approaches." But I don't think it would go over well with a few of the staff.

zabis wrote:

nydig wrote:I wish there was a dmg taken stat so i could point to it as proof that i get way to much focus.

Didnt you people get the memo WE sucks now focus / ap drain someone else.

In the mod DaScore, it even shows how much each player damaged you, that way you'll know who hates you the most. It also saves every scenario stat screen for later reference.

'Damage taken' is a worthless stat. All it's really showing is that a toon was close enough to be hit by the opposition. A defensive tank who stands out in front for the whole scen will top this stat but it doesn't mean they have done anything constructive. It doesn't indicate that they were of any use when their allies started taking damage. If anything, it shows they were probably sucking up healing that should have gone to more productive toons.

A damage mitigated by guard stat would be useful because you could compare it with healing stats to see just how useful Guard is.

being a tank in this game is kinda MEH , you cant do damage (even if u try hard) , u cant really CC accordingly , all u do is stand between you team and enemy team as a dumb sheep soacking all the damages , tanks role is only to absorb damage , forget about the rest

Penril wrote: BS. In many SC's, enemies go for your healers. And healers will, ofc, heal themselves. With your system, this healing wouldn't be considered.

Yes, i don't see any issues whatsoever with the current SC stat window because it's just numbers. You think changing those numbers will magically make people improve their gameplay. I see no relation between one and the other.

Ok first, yes, healers get focused. But this doesnt = your scenario of ONE healer kiting like a pro distracting the entire team for 10 minutes while they win. A healer most likely will not JUST be able to spam heal himself and that = a win. In fact its quite god strategy TO pressure healers with MDPS (like your below example) which causes a loss. Versus currently, say a MDPS IS pressuring the healer so he DOES get to kite and heal himself for 10 minutes, his healing will be off the charts good and he will not see anything wrong with what happened because "I did 200k healer bro! L2P!" When in reality that healer could have done a MUCH better job positioning himself to NOT get beat on for 10 minutes straight.

Again, comparing the TWO current stats.
total ALL healing - you have MORE liabilities than just showing total ALLY healing. Sure you wont have 200k games, but you will be able to tell who kept the group alive and who didnt. A guy who spam heals himself while 1-2 MDPS beat on him, frankly isnt "keeping the group alive" without that healer ALSO throwing HoTs or something on allies...

So lesser of two evils? I think the scale tips to the "ally healing only". In fact most situations you will run into, Ally healing would be a better "gauge" on how that person impacted the group rather than total healing.

Do they both have issues? Sure ANY system has flaws... But I think the current system has MORE flaws in that it encourages selfish play and doesnt give an accurate gauge at contribution, in fact it almost gives the OPPOSITE where an ally heal system will be able to distinguish between the skilled healers versus non skilled healers.

TLDR: BOTH methods have liabilities, I just personally think my suggestion has less than the current.

Penril wrote: Let me explain again: In your system, you only count damage done to players that die. Let's assume people are assisting each other but the Choppa in their group is attacking a guarded WP. The group is trying to kill easier targets (SW, WL, etc) but without the Choppa's damage (who is still attacking the guarded WP) they can't kill anything. Finally, they decide to attack the Choppa's target (the guarded WP) and they manage to kill him. Since this was the only player who died, only the damage done to him will be considered. And since the Choppa was attacking him for a while, he will have like 50k damage on him while his group will have like 1-3k. With the system you suggest, the MVP of the SC would be the Choppa. In reality, the Choppa was the worst player because he NEVER assisted his other teammates. Do you get it now?

I understand and I guess no "grace" or "benefit" is awarded to the suggestion. Did I spell out EXACTLY how this was to be done? No, I threw it out as an idea. As for spelling it out... You could easily "cap" the total awarded damage to the players HP. Thus mooting this out. Or you could only count damage done in the last X seconds, only count damage > healing which would be another way to cap it at his HP (basically any damage healed, is erased as damage dealt). I mean there are TONS of ways to get around this it seems rather silly to take such exception to it when this would blatantly NOT be a good recommendation. Look at it from the GOAL.

The GOAL of a "damage dealt" column is to try and "gauge" how much contribution your damage did to the game. Thats what it SHOULD be. Maybe you disagree there which means we will fundamentally always disagree with suggestions around this topic, which is fine. We can agree to disagree.

So how do you measure contribution? thats extremely hard. DPS creates pressure which can do a ton of things, so obviously its NOT "just kills" however when you are in an SC and a Magus get 100k damage, but our team doesnt kill ONE person... That says something. The Magus may think "Oh I topped Deeps Brah!" when in reality, he didnt do anything but "fluff damage" that is VERY easy to heal by just throwing a few HoTs out.. How would that Magus KNOW he could do better? How would an AoE Sorc/BW KNOW that their Bomb spec is inferior to ST spec for SCs if they top the DPS charts every game they play? Sure 2-3 properly run can be a nightmare, but thats completely different (and would show up difference in a 'dps only on deaths' type of system". To me, its very clear the CURRENT stats promote these types of things - like DPS tanks... dps healers... AoE DPS... Which all have their place... however when I see a ST Sorc with 80k damage and an AoE Magus with 100k, how do you know who contributed more? Sure you MIGHT be able to look at death blows, which is ALSO very misleading and that Sorc might have 4 DBs while the Magus has 1. But I would almost guarantee the "Contribution" to the group was VASTLY different.

So I think (again) a better way to weight contribution would be IF there were a way to track damage that "mattered" we BOTH would agree not all damage matters. The Chosen/Knight "AoE" aura is a joke... its SO easy to outheal 150+ damage/s3 seconds yet it boosts your total damage numbers by like 20-25% in an SC or more... How do people gauge if this is good or not compared to say a toughness aura? They cant... Because the worthless damage shows up on a quantifiable # while the toughness aura doesnt.

Sure after months of playing and being called a noob, the DPS tank might realize there is more to his class than trying to top DPS charts. But think of all those SCs he was CARRIED through by his team, or COST his team, because he didnt realize the stats at the end of the game are not to be trusted....

My question to you: IF it were possible, why wouldnt you want to change those stats to show a better contribution system so that you COULD actually use them as some type of gauge as to how well you did?

th3gatekeeper wrote:
My question to you: IF it were possible, why wouldnt you want to change those stats to show a better contribution system so that you COULD actually use them as some type of gauge as to how well you did?

Because if you add a "damage mitigated" column then you would end up with more players thinking like this:

lilsabin wrote:being a tank in this game is kinda MEH , you cant do damage (even if u try hard) , u cant really CC accordingly , all u do is stand between you team and enemy team as a dumb sheep soacking all the damages , tanks role is only to absorb damage , forget about the rest

I am not against a better contribution system. I was simply saying that damage mitigated is not a good way to measure tanks, because tanks also mitigate damage with their CC and the damage you mitigate this way can't be measured.

It is not rare to see some of the best KotBS in this game mitigating almost no damage in a SC. Why? Their AoE snare, AoE root, AoE stagger, ST KD and superpunt make it really hard for Destro to reach his healers and rDPS. If Destro can't even hit the Order backline, the KotBS is not receiving/blocking any Guard damage. In the meantime, a solo Vaul/Hoeth bubble SM is pushing the Destro backline but doing pitiful damage and applying zero CC. He is mitigating a LOT of damage thanks to his bubbles/block/parry; however, Destro healers just detaunt and ignore him.

SC ends. KotBS mitigates 10k damage, SM mitigates 50k. Who was the best tank in that SC?

Penril wrote:

th3gatekeeper wrote:
My question to you: IF it were possible, why wouldnt you want to change those stats to show a better contribution system so that you COULD actually use them as some type of gauge as to how well you did?

Because if you add a "damage mitigated" column then you would end up with more players thinking like this:

lilsabin wrote:being a tank in this game is kinda MEH , you cant do damage (even if u try hard) , u cant really CC accordingly , all u do is stand between you team and enemy team as a dumb sheep soacking all the damages , tanks role is only to absorb damage , forget about the rest

I am not against a better contribution system. I was simply saying that damage mitigated is not a good way to measure tanks, because tanks also mitigate damage with their CC and the damage you mitigate this way can't be measured.

It is not rare to see some of the best KotBS in this game mitigating almost no damage in a SC. Why? Their AoE snare, AoE root, AoE stagger, ST KD and superpunt make it really hard for Destro to reach his healers and rDPS. If Destro can't even hit the Order backline, the KotBS is not receiving/blocking any Guard damage. In the meantime, a solo Vaul/Hoeth bubble SM is pushing the Destro backline but doing pitiful damage and applying zero CC. He is mitigating a LOT of damage thanks to his bubbles/block/parry; however, Destro healers just detaunt and ignore him.

SC ends. KotBS mitigates 10k damage, SM mitigates 50k. Who was the best tank in that SC?

OK sure, but then again I never said mitigated. If I did, I misspoke. I merely meant to say GUARD damage shown.

And I think we largly agree. CC is a great form of contribution and this is a very high level of play you are explaining. My goal is to get that newer player to look at the scoreboard (which they do) and to say "how can I improve".

Right now they look at the scoreboard and ask this question and the ONLY thing that sticks out is "MOAR DAMAGE!"

The Knight you are talking about, is a seasoned vet, already knows all this stuff and sure a "guard bot" will soak up more damage, have more GUARD damage shown and arguably contribute less HOWEVER its a step towards the right direction when he can THEN learn to tank, learn to do some CC and learn whats effective. It takes emphasis off "total damage".

And yeah, I DO think tanks in this game suffer a bit, its a thankless roll currently... Usually its healers but I think people know when they are healed and atleast there is a number at the end a healer can point to and say "Dude, I healed the **** out of you!" With a tank its like "hey guys, remember me? I kept you fro dy...." getting interrupted by a Sorc in your TS saying "Pew pew pew 10 DBs!"

I actually think tanks SHOULD have an "offensive" spec they could go and put out competitive numbers. Thats a different topic though.

"SC ends. KotBS mitigates 10k damage, SM mitigates 50k. Who was the best tank in that SC?" - My response. 1) its better than what we have today AND 2) Atleast they are not FOCUSING ON MITIGATION and not damage lol Step in the right direction.

Again, ANY system has flaws. The current one pushes tanks and healers towards DPS IMO. Sure "guarded damage" isnt perfect and some front line noob will have a higher number than your scenario of the knight, but in order to get this "guarded damage" number up, Hey, he has to GUARD someone lol. Which is more than I can say for most tanks in SCs.