Mara vs WL

[Tiggo]

...

speaking words of wisdom.

[Rebuke]

The points & suggestions Medeas made regarding the marauder balance are based on the RR100 patch including Trivial Blows and insane high armor values. Though some facts can't be overlooked and i stated myself that no class should ever have both: a debuff for his own damage type AND an incoming healdebuff. The reason for this: those debuffs are necessary to kill a target with guard and heal. If one class can provide both, the diversity in terms of group setup becomes crippled and it is very likely that we will get the same monotonous setups we had on live.

Anyway, we have to wait until T4 before we can discuss anything else than the availability of the healdebuff. On live the marauder dealt more damage than other mdps just because of the high armor values. The more armor you have, the more effective Piercing Bite will be. Due to the stacking armor debuffs (morale + skills) we have on RoR, i am not sure if PB will be the same got to go tactic, it was on live. Cutting Claw and a certain amount of WS (which is provided by gear) should be enough to cut through any DPS armor and that's where a fight starts. Hence this means other tactics might become better in terms of pressure. After the dps is dead, a group usually pressures the healer. On RoR you can stack Cutting Claw + Tank M1. Again it is likely that other tactics might become better bc they will simply provide more than ignoring 50% of an already highly reduced amount of armor.

What else got mentioned? His defense! True, on live marauder was the most tanky mdps in the game. Again that was based on insane high armor values. Even without stacking armor, a marauder had an armor overcap. A luxus he won't have here, at least i hope so (depends on what the devs are planning). What that means is that even if he was armor debuffed by the highest order armor debuff (WL), he still had around 60-70% mitigation depending on his set. Popping monstrosity was ofc too strong bc the more armor you have, the more effective the buff becomes. On RoR a Marauder is very vulnerable after being armor debuffed. That means monstro provides not even 50% of what it was on live. Giving him an baited trap equivalent (what Med suggested) might be too good and better than the actual implementation, so it might be a step into the wrong direction and end up with a buff. Not even mentioning the impact of iniative, FoF debuff (fix) and general chance to be critted.

So before discussing anything further regarding marauder balance especially with arguments like "remove GI", wait until we got T4. Destru got already limited in terms of diversity after the latest WE nerf and no matter what some people might think she is clearly not viable any longer and won't be able to compete with mdok, choppa nor marauder in T4. At least not in group play. Nerfing the marauder in an hesitated way - equal to what happend to the WE - will simply make one realm way better than the other.

PS: since our videos got mentioned and people are acting like WL is weak, make sure to pay attention to the pressure difference once the pet is alive! Mrd can't compete with the WL damage and WL is clearly the class with the highest single target pressure in the game (after the WE nerf ).

Agreed. But look at how easily this superior st pressure is culled by spending 1 or 2 gcd om the pet. You cripple the WL way to easily by killing the pet without the enemy group having any viable counter to it.

[Tiggo]

Agreed. But look at how easily this superior st pressure is culled by spending 1 or 2 gcd om the pet. You cripple the WL way to easily by killing the pet without the enemy group having any viable counter to it.

how about an instant revive of the pet with a tactic or something like sh has when deliberatly killing his pet?

[Arbich]

if we start balancing on 1on1 situation this game is doomed sorry ...

the mara gets guard and pocket heal and then has PLENTY of time to apply all his debuffs and he is a VITAL asset to any group.

WL is a VITAL asset to any group cause of pounce (mostly needs no guard) and armor debuff and his
burst dmg.

both are pretty balanced IMHO

If Mara and WL are a VITAL asset to the group, then they are not balanced.

Edit: I agree Tiggo, that if you compare WL and Mara you can t say which one is better. Bretins post is very good, especially about the lack of group diversity with the tools a mara can offer. 2 mara as dps in a 6 men group are maybe not the best group composition (I dont know), but a viable one. The WL one the other hand is the best dps in a 1tank/3dps group, because he is not so dependent on guard as other mdps (especially in bigger fights than 6vs6). And yes, he has great burst dmg.

[Tiggo]

if we start balancing on 1on1 situation this game is doomed sorry ...

the mara gets guard and pocket heal and then has PLENTY of time to apply all his debuffs and he is a VITAL asset to any group.

WL is a VITAL asset to any group cause of pounce (mostly needs no guard) and armor debuff and his
burst dmg.

both are pretty balanced IMHO

If Mara and WL are a VITAL asset to the group, then they are not balanced.

you know what i mean

[Haojin]

First of all, I agree that WLs need some work to add more utility and also some abilities seem as if they had been designed for pve and should be looked into.

Compared to WL mara has way more utility with the incredible amount of debuffs he has, so he is better equipped to be part of ideal melee train and 6mans.

I can accept this argument if we're on T4. But atm, WL is much better than Mara.

[peterthepan3]

WE wasn't nerfed; it was fixed as per how it performed on live. Come T4, and it will be very good in capable hands again. Loads of classes pale in comparison to Marauder; that's nothing new.

[Annaise16]

The WL class is strong in every situation except 6v6, and their only problem in 6v6 is loss of damage when the pet is killed. To fix that, you just need to make sure that the Loner build provides the same amount of dps as the pet builds in end game gear. That shouldn't be too hard to do.

So, if the WL is looking to 6v6, they can give up the unneeded (in this context) utility of Silence and Fetch for the guaranteed dps provided by Loner. Loner is normally also used when aoe damage is prevalent because the pet has no chance against that.

The Marauder class mostly needs a nerf to the heal tactic. They really shouldn't have access to a 50% heal debuff.

Apart from that, the 65 ft range on their Pull was always an impediment to the two sides closing the gap in rvr. This was because few on order were stupid enough to be the first to step forward and be pulled into the destro ranks where they would be immediately killed. A shorter pull range will bring the two sides closer together during stand-offs. That brings the dps into play because they have something to target other than defensive tanks.

Piercing Bite was also massively overpowered. It was easily the best tactic in game when the Marauder's target had medium or heavy armor. In those situations, it delivered up to twice as much extra damage as any other dps tactic. In terms of armor penetration, it was delivering the equivalent of about 300 extra points of Weapon Skill.

[roadkillrobin]

You took my post out of context. If you remove the requirements of the pet in reguard to the the crit tactic you have to completely overhaul the class.

Not sure how I took you out of context there.
You said they probobly would need to look over tactics like Loner and Venegnce if Pack Synnergy didn't have the pet condition. And i posted tons if stuff that WL allready loose for not having a pet.
WL is currently one of the classes that have 0 use in large scale combat coz they loose to much when pet dies from AoE dmg. And when pet dies so does the WL dmg. I see 2 options here. Make pet immune to AoE dmg, or make the non viable AoE dps build viable and that would probobly include buffing pack synnergy.

[Bretin]

The WL class is strong in every situation except 6v6, and their only problem in 6v6 is loss of damage when the pet is killed. To fix that, you just need to make sure that the Loner build provides the same amount of dps as the pet builds in end game gear. That shouldn't be too hard to do.

The WL is able to keep his damage up after his pet got killed in a 6vs6 enviroment simply by slotting Revenge. A tactic you seem to overlook/underestimate completely. 50% damage for 10 out of 15 seconds before the WL can be respawned. If you have doubts regarding its viability check out my twitch (6vs6 against Don't Panic).

So, if the WL is looking to 6v6, they can give up the unneeded (in this context) utility of Silence and Fetch for the guaranteed dps provided by Loner. Loner is normally also used when aoe damage is prevalent because the pet has no chance against that.

Calling any kind of crowd control such as fetch unneeded is a bit dubious. At the end of the day it's your opinion and i have to respect it. On the other hand i (personally) wouldn't call it useless.

Apart from that, the 65 ft range on their Pull was always an impediment to the two sides closing the gap in rvr. This was because few on order were stupid enough to be the first to step forward and be pulled into the destro ranks where they would be immediately killed. A shorter pull range will bring the two sides closer together during stand-offs. That brings the dps into play because they have something to target other than defensive tanks.

What about 2 100 feet range kd's which can be used in the same way (to zerg down people)? While Terrible Embrace is quite obvious and can be rupted easy by tanks, the range kd is pretty much unexpected and can come from any SW/BW inside the zerg. Also going into 65f infront of the enemy zerg to pull will automatically force the marauder into engi's pull / sw+bw kd range.

Piercing Bite was also massively overpowered. It was easily the best tactic in game when the Marauder's target had medium or heavy armor. In those situations, it delivered up to twice as much extra damage as any other dps tactic. In terms of armor penetration, it was delivering the equivalent of about 300 extra points of Weapon Skill.

I think i covered the situation of Piercing Bite in my previous post. Nothing more to say.