BW vs Sorc

[Jaycub]

TTK is fine, but once you throw healers in the mix it can get pretty bad with lack of incoming debuffs.

My experience so far is only from PUG SCs and the few 4/5 mans I have played in which were just steam rolls. But when pugging it is virtually impossible to kill a healer or any back lines class as a MDPS through a detaunt or gaurd, and since pug tanks don't seem to know gaurd is a skill you end up dying 9 times out of 10, and even if you did get that gaurd you are probably still toast.

However ranged dps can pull off picks much easier thanks to it being harder to detaunt, and just higher damage output thanks to not needed to be in meele range and essentially double damage M2s.

My WH torment hits for ~250, while my engineer was doing ~400-450 on gunblast which doesn't ignore armor and is only .6 sec longer cast time... and has 100ft range instead of 5, and doesnt require you to be behind your target. The only thing keeping WH from completely drowning as a class is having the only heal debuff on order, but at level 21 BW/SW and Knight get theirs and there will be literally no reason at all to play WH over Slayer or WL.

[Vraal]

From other threads like this my understanding is that WP/DoK group cleanse will also be subject to change. After this many things (including the meta position of the Magus) will look very differently and only after that can you really address the 1-shot-potential of BW/Sorc in T4.
Just my 2 cents.

[noisestorm]

From other threads like this my understanding is that WP/DoK group cleanse will also be subject to change.

Tbh i would appreciate a **** ton of changes on multiple things (so does obviously Aza too). The problem are those retarded lemmings that want to maintain Status Quo of the game though. Imo one can **** on their opinions and have them adapt, but since i got no power of decision here you can all rest assured... for now :>

[Vraal]

From my personal experience with the player-base there are a lot of fair minded and realistic veterans who see obvious balance issues which have to be addressed once we get there. Of course some people will cry after necessary changes but they are either no loss to the community or will adapt to the changes eventually. Matter of fact is that some mechanics (like group cleanse on short CD) effect the game in such a negative way that many playstyles are rendered useless. This fact alone makes it worth looking into it.
All in all I am positive that the people who actually carry out any changes (looking at Az) can very well differentiate between honest, objective and valuable player feedback and mere crying.

[Jaycub]

The problem with balancing a game like warhammer is the meta in SC/ORvR is so different, and there isn't really a competitive or top level of play.

For instance you would think balancing a game like DotA would be much harder than WAR, but because the game is for all practical purposes played the same way... on the same map it makes it much easier. But when that game is balanced... it is ALWAYS balanced at the very tip top of competitive play, and never caters to the whining or crying of low rank / pugs.

For instance a hero like blood seeker is countered by... just carrying a fricken TP scroll on you, but bad players will refuse to do this and feed him early and let him snowball out of controll and cry OP. Or heroes that can take advantage of the jungle and are not ganked once in 20 minutes, and somehow that makes them OP.

So the problem that presets itself is if BW is buffed to deal w/ group cleanse people who don't play "competitively" will lose their minds, and if group cleanse or cleanse in general is reworked it could totally change the meta for both ORvR, casual SC's, and competitive play.

I can't really say how this game should be balanced, but as someone who really wants to play in a competitive atmosphere I would like to see the game balanced at the 6v6 level, however that could totally ruin ORvR and anything PUG and piss off more people than it makes happy.

[Vraal]

Nerf Group Cleanse, then nerf BW/Sorc accordingly. Magus will suddenly be better and then we can see further. You gotta start somewhere^^

[Jaycub]

Nerf Group Cleanse, then nerf BW/Sorc accordingly. Magus will suddenly be better and then we can see further. You gotta start somewhere^^

Remove group cleanse and buff single target cleanse :^)

[Vraal]

How tho?
A Group Cleanse nerf would also encourage a greater healer diversity and break the rule of our supreme "melee" healer overlords xD

[Jaycub]

How tho?
A Group Cleanse nerf would also encourage a greater healer diversity and break the rule of our supreme "melee" healer overlords xD

Can't say, never played healer or the classes really effected too much by cleanse.

But from the sounds of it, it seems like healers can just push 1 button without having to think at all and it will remove 1? negative effective from everyone in their party, the only downside being you aren't healing for that cast time or GCD. What healers have group cleanse? and what kind of CD's, cast times, etc... do they have?

Can two healers in a 6v6 really just cleanse everything from their group while still keeping everyone up?

[Foltestik]

How tho?
A Group Cleanse nerf would also encourage a greater healer diversity and break the rule of our supreme "melee" healer overlords xD

Can't say, never played healer or the classes really effected too much by cleanse.

But from the sounds of it, it seems like healers can just push 1 button without having to think at all and it will remove 1? negative effective from everyone in their party, the only downside being you aren't healing for that cast time or GCD. What healers have group cleanse? and what kind of CD's, cast times, etc... do they have?

Can two healers in a 6v6 really just cleanse everything from their group while still keeping everyone up?

i believe developers dont do any changes in game balance, becouse people like you what never play this game properly will ruin in even more:D