Which class would you like to see in the Balance Forum?

[Penril]

That is a very weird argument. You don't go for the healers, hence BOs damage works and BGs healdebuff doesn't. There is no way to catch a RP with 150 range on most of his skills, unless he **** up. Even if you catch him, 1) the WP can cleanse him, 2) CW is mandatory on healers for that exact reason, 3) the RP does not do the bulk of the healing, even debuffed it's not too much trouble when you couple it with disengaging, defensive morales or other stuff. 5s KD is still not the end of the world, certainly not when the KD is not up because you are charging the RP hence you don't block. I am not saying that the BG does not have it's uses, but you don't want to play with a tank that can sometimes put a HD on an enemy.

Several groups go for the healers. Do you want me to link several 6v6 videos from some of the best guilds in RoR? Sure, most of the time you start by trying to kill a DPS, but if no one gets a kill after several minutes, you go for a healer.

I have reached good RPs in live and RoR several times. It doesn't matter if the WP cleanses him or he uses CW because Mind Killer is spammable.

BG brings more than just "sometimes put a HD on an enemy". You can reduce your enemy's chance to crit by 20%, reduce AP cost on a mDPS (WL already has some AP issues), have 2 interrupts (only destro tank that has 2), AoE 10% block/parry debuff, just to name a few.

Most good players don't run suboptimal setups, that is why you don't see them a lot

I would rather say most players don't run anything other than the perceived FotM. If someone says on the forums "this is your setup" they will follow without ever questioning anything. Sure, BO + Chosen is FotM, but that does not mean BGs are weak. That is the point i am defending; that SnB BGs are fine.

Okay. Here it is. Why SM & BO are strong atm: It's their damage. This is more aimed at IB vs SM than it is for BG vs BO, because I feel like IB is totally viable . With a SM or a BO you have 3 dps. Hence you can kill targets through guard and decent healers. If you don't have the SM or the BO, you have to get tricky with punts. That is really the biggest factor. 3 DPS can consistently kill a guarded target- 2 DPS have to rely on burst windows, punts, enemy mistakes etc.
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It's a playstyle thing apparently then. Most people prefer to try and burn a target through guard instead of trying to land tricky CC. I can understand that; it seems easier. Then again we need to see if this extra damage will be enough once we are at higher RR levels and have access to Sov. Still, snare+punt the BO/SM and you are reducing his damage to zero for a few seconds. Also, BG can't be detaunted; I would really like to compare a good SnB DPS BG vs a SnB DPS BO when fighting good Order players who know how to detaunt.

So yeah, I still think SnB BGs don't really need any buffs (remember, that is what i am defending; at no point have i claimed BG>>>>>BO). And while BOs are pretty good atm, they are not the gods so many people claim they are.

[Shadowgurke]

Several groups go for the healers. Do you want me to link several 6v6 videos from some of the best guilds in RoR? Sure, most of the time you start by trying to kill a DPS, but if no one gets a kill after several minutes, you go for a healer.

And I bet most of the time the enemy healer is badly positioned. Point is you can avoid it, at least on the RP. You would probably need around 30% uptime on the healdebuff to make it viable compared to a BO. That is just me guessing ofc.

I have reached good RPs in live and RoR several times. It doesn't matter if the WP cleanses him or he uses CW because Mind Killer is spammable.

You can't stay on the RP forever. Sure you can swap on the RP but then you have no pressure on the enemy DPS, hence they will kill your DDs rather quickly. And again, that requires the RP to get caught.

BG brings more than just "sometimes put a HD on an enemy". You can reduce your enemy's chance to crit by 20%, reduce AP cost on a mDPS (WL already has some AP issues), have 2 interrupts (only destro tank that has 2), AoE 10% block/parry debuff, just to name a few.

I know what the class has, I played it. But at the end of the day it's not enough. Utility wise you don't beat a Chosen, DPS wise you cant touch the BO. Even if the meta allowed you to run without a DPS BO then you are still just a worse IB.

I would rather say most players don't run anything other than the perceived FotM. If someone says on the forums "this is your setup" they will follow without ever questioning anything. Sure, BO + Chosen is FotM, but that does not mean BGs are weak. That is the point i am defending; that SnB BGs are fine.

Iirc BO and SM were considered weak on live? The fact that now everybody plays BO + Chosen is pretty telling, at least to me. We tested the BG, on paper and in reality.

It's a playstyle thing apparently then. Most people prefer to try and burn a target through guard instead of trying to land tricky CC. I can understand that; it seems easier. Then again we need to see if this extra damage will be enough once we are at higher RR levels and have access to Sov. Still, snare+punt the BO/SM and you are reducing his damage to zero for a few seconds. Also, BG can't be detaunted; I would really like to compare a good SnB DPS BG vs a SnB DPS BO when fighting good Order players who know how to detaunt.

There are many things that counter tricky CC while high DPS is just something that will inevitably win you the fight. I believe you can win with tricky CC but at that point you are fighting an uphill battle.

So yeah, I still think SnB BGs don't really need any buffs (remember, that is what i am defending; at no point have i claimed BG>>>>>BO). And while BOs are pretty good atm, they are not the gods so many people claim they are.

Are you saying that BGs are even to BOs? I think IB and SM are a good example of how both tanks have their niche while both are equally strong. BG for me is strictly worse than IB

[peterthepan3]

I don't quite follow you there. Having multiples of the same CC is never bad. I never said that the Magus is an essential asset to the group. And Rift is unique, btw

I want you to understand that we are on the same page about Magus. But you dislike Rift and want him to be something else. I don't play Magus anymore and don't care about how the class is played, hence Magus being a Riftbot is fine in my eyes. I understand that the design is lacking, but so is the Knight for example. That does not make him weak.

First of all: Removal of Rift? I did not say that at all.
I just want you to understand the implications of buffing ST Magus. Of course Havoc/Change Magus will outdps Rift Magus. But you will still buff Rift Magus, a class that is already pretty strong. And it's not unlikely that the best spec at the end of the day is still going to be the Rift Magus, now with more single target damage than before.

Since you mentioned not buffing damage: While I like the general idea, making Magus viable in 6v6 (that is your goal?) means you have to buff damage. Unless you can come up with something pretty crazy.

you said: The issue is that in order to make Magus Engi viable for 6v6, you have to buff their damage but you can't let them keep their Pull.

naturally I interpreted as 'buff magus, but remove pull'. if that was a misinterpretation on my part, my bad.

I get you, but anyone who goes rift and tries to single-target damage will simply not be able to effectively as you miss far too many essential abilities by going so far up in the utility tree, which is why it would be a non-issue imo.

the best specs would remain the same, as rift is completely useless for anything outside of large rvr. even if you buffed all magus st damage by 100%, going rift means you - at least - will have a spec like this to pick up the essentials (toughness debatable, but good if tanky rift)....which means you can only get access to either Bolt of Change and Disarm - at rr70, mind - or Indigo Fire and range tactic - which is not a threat as for a ST build to work, you need havoc's crit tactic.

I empathise with you in regards to weighing up a buff for a class, i.e. how buffing one aspect may - inadvertently - cause imbalance for the class overall when combined with other aspects, though i do not think this would be the case for these two classes. (heck if it was, let it be! let's turn the fotm meta upside down!!!...I jest.. )

[Gatlin]

Engie/Magus deffinitley need the most attention ..

[Penril]

Iirc BO and SM were considered weak on live? The fact that now everybody plays BO + Chosen is pretty telling, at least to me. We tested the BG, on paper and in reality.

Yeah, they were considered weak on live. Their damage simply wasn't enough back then to justify taking one over a BG or IB, due to Gear/RR i guess. Utility was king (for tanks) and that's the reason why they had several of their bellows/enchants reworked for 1.4.9 and were even gonna get a defensive Pounce.

The fact everybody plays BO now? They are certainly WAY more viable than on live (for the reasons i mentioned). That and, as i mentioned, people are still undergeared/lack RR. BO also happens to have a +crit damage tactic, making his damage better than on live (since we don't have Trivial Blows here).

There are many things that counter tricky CC while high DPS is just something that will inevitably win you the fight. I believe you can win with tricky CC but at that point you are fighting an uphill battle.

I believe "tricky" CC is the perfect counter to high DPS. But we can agree to disagree, if that's ok with you.

Are you saying that BGs are even to BOs? I think IB and SM are a good example of how both tanks have their niche while both are equally strong. BG for me is strictly worse than IB

No. I'm saying exactly what i said: that SnB BGs don't need any buffs, and that BOs, while good, are not the gods most people claim they are. Are they even? No, but i strongly disagree with anyone that claims BO is miles ahead of BG.

[lunkee]

I haven't played long enough to vote on this, also I see no point in voting if i haven't played the supposedly "mirrored" class to an almost equal amount so I could compare them.

So far I could only say, stuff like Choppa needs all the buffs! because I main one, but even there, I don't got enough experience, sure I tried different specs, Grinded a crapton and made alot of cash, completely forgot about renown, but I could afford to respec, and I can't judge if an ability really needs change or if it's my lack of experience.

Other than going all out Path of 'Da Wrecka, amazing if you'r grinding for cash , but sucks bigtime in rvr, or any other situation. haha.

[Fulkan]

only thing zealot/runie are missing is aoe detaunt

They have one. It needs shorter cool down.

Zealot definitely needs to be looked at. It's at a huge disadvantage to the RP for a variety of reasons.

I think this and the loot table are all Zealots/RP really need to be on par with other healers. As it stands now runies can basically infinitely heal with Grungi GTAOE rune, where as a Zealot needs to be much more carfeful about AP Spending. Also runies don't even need FM when they can pop Mountain Spirit and basically make their group God mode vs what gear most people are using.

Also having a lack of Crit gear options for RP/Zealot makes Restorative Burst much less viable in the 4Tactic sets.

Spot on.

My issues with the Zealot and RP is as follows:

The RP definitely has the better healing abilities and tactics while not having to deal with WL and SW spam. The Zealot can definitely benefit from a healing tune up that's based on the RP heal trees.

The RP most definitely does NOT have the DPS that the Zealot has. It definitely needs a DPS tune up based on the Zealot DPS trees.

Both classes suffer from the current gear caps as they literally need RR 70+ to fully blossom. That's not going to be possible anytime soon - if ever.

I also think that both classes would benefit from reduced cast time build up when hit. Seriously, it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep a group up without a DOK/WP as co heals. You can have all the flash heals you want but casting a 4-5 second group heal when you're simply in range of damage abilities is a death sentence to the group. The only way to stay alive on the classes is to kite and spam yourself. On paper. that sounds rather good but in practice, you're team is crumbling as soon as you're tagged.

[Eathisword]

@Eathisword: #1 Your spec is not a secret and #2 you will not do more damage than a SM. #3 The armordebuff utility gets covered by the WL already. I play the same spec btw.

#1 I don't get your point about a secret. I didn'T say it was. I just pointed out that most IB don'T spec like this. But yeah, if it makes you feel strong and manly, go ahead and discredit my point by attacking me instead of what i said.

#2 No where did i say you'd do more damage than a SM. I said comparable/on par. As in maybe a bit less but in the same range. And yes, it does. A mara has about 2800 armor (with a 660 pot), chop off 1200 and attack with 35%+ penetration it leaves him with about 22% mitigation on every attack. SM will have 0-10% for etherdance, PE and blurring shock, 30-35% on everything else if you have WL armor debuff (if not, he faces seriously gimp auto attack/snares/Eagle'S flgiht damage...). Then, the scoreboard damage is missleading as PE will proc on AoE like WoH and boost damage by a bunch but its all fluff. So again, the difference on the relevant target is much smaller than people believe between a similarly spec IB and SM... unless you attack the tanks... But yeah, nice strawman...

#3 Not every comp has a WL... If you bring a WL, you need SM not for damage but for covering the slayer's heal debuff against 2 dok. So this argument is bs...

[lilsabin]

all of them maybe ?

[kweedko]

all of them maybe ?

nah they not in to it they just want magus oneshoot everything in first branch spec