Return of Reckoning

just make TB work, nothing else required

>full warband is needed to kill single healing Warrrior priest.
thats pretty funny. silence/heal debuffs, did you heard about them?
TB is must have in this game. atm is too friendly for ranged classes.

noisestorm wrote:First off: I want this to be a nice conversation so please keep it calm.

I was talking with Aza today about the issue with too high crits from especially Sorcs/BWs that we have at the moment.
Its not solely about Sorcs/BWs but how easily Crit in general is obtainable later on and how many Crit modifiers the whole game has.
My own suggestion (which i made some long time ago already) was to just give Initiative some more meaning by implementing some sort of AntiCritDmgComponent to it (like Trivial Blows was working). This way people would have a stat to itemize for to avoid Crit damage instead of having to waste a no-brainer 45points in TB.

Azas personal preference allthough would be something like more directly targeting the Classes that deal too much damage, because Init/TB changes would basically also lower the damage of already weak classes in comparison. I personally can also see the reasoning here, but here i have some special idea. An implementation of Init/TB that solely lowers the damage from Bonus-Crit-Dmg. Every class has its base 50% Crit dmg and will still always deal that. Classes that use Tactics or Mechanics (Sorc/BW) will have their Bonus crit coming from those sources reduced on the other hand.

This would give people a chance to itemize against the ridiculous amount of Critburst that we already have (and which will just get WAY worse later on), but do not touch classes with already average dps. Also this will not be a no-brainer to go for, since you have to also invest RR for it, or slot your Armor with it. So you cannot run full armor/resis or any mainstat if you want that sweet mitigation. Also this whole thing still has counterplay since there are Init debuffs existent in the game.

From what ive gathered so far there will be balancing for heavily overloaded kits. Sooner or later doesnt matter, but it will definitely come some time. Additionally there are a few different things that could also need some adjusting so i will just list them and want to hear some feedback from you guys.

#1 The Init change from above.

#2 40% Softcap (where diminishing Return starts) for Resistances. This could easilly be increased to 50% or more.

#3 TB like it was back on live?

#4 Make armor easier to be accessible

#5 Strenghten the efficiency of Toughness

#6 Just nerfing the Classes that clearly outshine in some parts of their Kit.


/discuss

Sorcs and BWs are meant to be strong like they are! In compensation they are squishi as hell (Sorcs especially) and hitting themselves with nearly every skill use.

bring good tank and good healer to the battlefield and you will forget about this problems. To not die in first seconds BW and Sorc must do the same.

Stop converting this game in to solo duels in the lakes - basically, DPS-AM paradise!

Stop making balancing suggestions based on T3 performance. SORC/BW are strong now but will move down the ladder as we all get increased WDPS contribution much more ini/resists from RvR gear in T4.

Just like AMs being OP as hell in T1-T2 this is their time to SpArcLe!

#1 The Init change from above.

No no no and no! As long as bugged LOTD tallies aren't implemented along with the other crazy crit gear from LOTD and RR100 WF/DF we are fine

#2 40% Softcap (where diminishing Return starts) for Resistances. This could easilly be increased to 50% or more.

It would make physical damage even stronger. Melee trains (physical damage) dominated end game this is just a horrible idea

#3 TB like it was back on live?

Implementing TB heavily favours order as order gets AA tactics and dest crits tactics.

TB was added to counter insane +crits and +crit damage from RR100 GEAR so as long as these aren't in game it isn't really needed. Having a RR-ability that all must spec is retarded and bad design

#5 Strenghten the efficiency of Toughness

"Triumphantly bad" and in so many ways considering how tough TF BGs are or IBs (that go deftard)

#6 Just nerfing the Classes that clearly outshine in some parts of their Kit.

Guess we need to nerf AMS snare/kiting then

SilverWF wrote:

noisestorm wrote:First off: I want this to be a nice conversation so please keep it calm.

I was talking with Aza today about the issue with too high crits from especially Sorcs/BWs that we have at the moment.
Its not solely about Sorcs/BWs but how easily Crit in general is obtainable later on and how many Crit modifiers the whole game has.
My own suggestion (which i made some long time ago already) was to just give Initiative some more meaning by implementing some sort of AntiCritDmgComponent to it (like Trivial Blows was working). This way people would have a stat to itemize for to avoid Crit damage instead of having to waste a no-brainer 45points in TB.

Azas personal preference allthough would be something like more directly targeting the Classes that deal too much damage, because Init/TB changes would basically also lower the damage of already weak classes in comparison. I personally can also see the reasoning here, but here i have some special idea. An implementation of Init/TB that solely lowers the damage from Bonus-Crit-Dmg. Every class has its base 50% Crit dmg and will still always deal that. Classes that use Tactics or Mechanics (Sorc/BW) will have their Bonus crit coming from those sources reduced on the other hand.

This would give people a chance to itemize against the ridiculous amount of Critburst that we already have (and which will just get WAY worse later on), but do not touch classes with already average dps. Also this will not be a no-brainer to go for, since you have to also invest RR for it, or slot your Armor with it. So you cannot run full armor/resis or any mainstat if you want that sweet mitigation. Also this whole thing still has counterplay since there are Init debuffs existent in the game.

From what ive gathered so far there will be balancing for heavily overloaded kits. Sooner or later doesnt matter, but it will definitely come some time. Additionally there are a few different things that could also need some adjusting so i will just list them and want to hear some feedback from you guys.

#1 The Init change from above.

#2 40% Softcap (where diminishing Return starts) for Resistances. This could easilly be increased to 50% or more.

#3 TB like it was back on live?

#4 Make armor easier to be accessible

#5 Strenghten the efficiency of Toughness

#6 Just nerfing the Classes that clearly outshine in some parts of their Kit.


/discuss

Sorcs and BWs are meant to be strong like they are! In compensation they are squishi as hell (Sorcs especially) and hitting themselves with nearly every skill use.



Stop converting this game in to solo duels in the lakes - basically, DPS-AM paradise!

What are you talking about? The only instance of sorc/bw being squishy is when they're playing solo without guard and healers. Add a guard and 1-2 healers and bw/sorc becomes tank of sorts.
And the damage sorcs/bws do to themselves is just neglectable compared to how much heal even a single healer can output per second.

Genisaurus wrote: 2. Some classes have more Initiative on their gear than others, like WH/WE, and this change as-is would completely rebalance those classes. CO and SM have slightly more Initative on their gear than other tanks in T4 (Mythic removed a good deal of WS from Sov since they do more Spirit damage), and this gives them an outright buff. If we wanted to preserve the current balance or make changes, we would likely need to change the itemization for many classes across all tiers. Since items are my thing, I'm not toooo happy with this prospect.

Basically this, plus: the difference is not only gear wise.
The initiative gap between classes goes from 2 to 4 initiative per lvl . Not even mentioning the different amount of initiative they start with.

Let me illustrate it: mara lvl 31 has 105 initiative without gear while the WE has 185.
(I dont have a WE just calculated that one)
I doubt we can find an impactful and at the same time balanced formula.

I already made a post about tb and why it shouldn't be implemented quite a while ago. Before going further we have to understand why it was implemented and imho it was because the devs realized how much crit, crit- and damage modifier were available after the implementation of lotd, the renown changes and the renown cap increase to100 and how strong they are. Critical damage is the most effective stat when it comes to raw damage and there is no doubt about that. When i started to play Warhammer a crit rate above 30+% was kinda rare on melee dps classes and you had to do put a lot of effort and time into your gear to get it. I'm talking about days when the dark promise set combined with 60.0 weapons were BiS. When i stopped playing Warhammer, my Marauder had a average crit rate of 87% during fights (without considering the chance to be crit on the opponent), a additional damage modifier to his GI and a 5% damage boost via accessoires. It was necessary to find solutions which will tune down the damage: so we got tb, hc and flat -crit. Compared to tb, you had to sacrifice your offensive potential when going for hc and the -crit was kinda lackluster compared to tb since it did not scale. Tb did not bring any disadvantages to the table and was without a doubt the best raw-damage reduction renown ability the game ever had. With 100(90 needed) renown points you had access to both tb and the best raw damage modifier the game has to offer (crit). What they did not consider is that there were classes which already had a hard time in group play due to the possibilities of counterplay and/or mitigation and what a impact a renown ability like TB will have on classes w/o sustain i.e. burst classes and classes w/o a core crit damage modifier.

That being said, let's talk about your suggestion:

I was talking with Aza today about the issue with too high crits from especially Sorcs/BWs that we have at the moment.

As stated above already, sorcs and bw's are one of those classes which really rely on their burst and there is already way too much counterplay to almost nullify their burst potential i.e. group cleanse, guard, melee pressure.

Its not solely about Sorcs/BWs but how easily Crit in general is obtainable later on and how many Crit modifiers the whole game has.

That again depends on the devs and about which items and renown abilities they will implement. Yet i don't see to many crit modifiers or crit in general.

My own suggestion (which i made some long time ago already) was to just give Initiative some more meaning by implementing some sort of AntiCritDmgComponent to it (like Trivial Blows was working). This way people would have a stat to itemize for to avoid Crit damage instead of having to waste a no-brainer 45points in TB.

Personally i would not touch the stats since it would also require to change the whole item database.

Azas personal preference allthough would be something like more directly targeting the Classes that deal too much damage, because Init/TB changes would basically also lower the damage of already weak classes in comparison.

+1 but that again has to be done very careful

I personally can also see the reasoning here, but here i have some special idea. An implementation of Init/TB that solely lowers the damage from Bonus-Crit-Dmg. Every class has its base 50% Crit dmg and will still always deal that. Classes that use Tactics or Mechanics (Sorc/BW) will have their Bonus crit coming from those sources reduced on the other hand.

as stated above: burst classes like the bw or the sorc are not a problem at all. classes like slayer/marauder don't shine because of a specific crit dmg tactic, the slayer don't even has one, but because of their slightly overloaded kit. that change would cripple classes like WL, WH, WE, BW and Sorc which are build around burst but nothing else.

#1 The Init change from above.

see above.

#2 40% Softcap (where diminishing Return starts) for Resistances. This could easilly be increased to 50% or more.

also stated above that resistance damage is most likely a non-factor when it comes to group pvp and that's what the game is build around.

#3 TB like it was back on live?

no, see above.

#4 Make armor easier to be accessible

armor is already easy accessable and i would not like to see this change.

#5 Strenghten the efficiency of Toughness

stated above that i would not touch the stats itself since it would also require to change the whole item database.

#6 Just nerfing the Classes that clearly outshine in some parts of their Kit.

+1 on that but again that has to be done VERY careful and should not be done as a result of too much Q_Q since a lot of people don't know what they are doing and/or talking about.

#4 Make armor easier to be accessible

no

illustration:
dok in devastor ~ 3k armor -> ws needed ca. 1000/550 (cap 825) buffed/debuffed (1360)
dok in warlord ~ 5k armor -> ws needed ca. 1600/1090 (cap 1050) buffed/debuffed (1600)

I strongly like the idea of increasing the efficiency of Toughness. Toughness actually gets WORSE the more mitigation you have from armor and resists, and it's a pretty poor stat to begin with, yet it is your only real choice to mitigate damage if you have enough of the % mitigation stats. It is also the only primary stat (besides Wounds, which is already an amazing stat) to have no secondary effect to it, like how the others provide avoidance check buffers, giving them slightly more value.

I agree with Azarael that the classes doing too much burst need to be dealt with separately. I think that Sorc/BW damage output could instead have a dot component so it's not just frontload burst damage (like what Blizzard did to Chaos Bolt), but that's just another idea to go into the pot.

Regarding resists, I think 40% is an okay number if a lot of the other issues regarding crit burst are dealt with. I think a big problem with resists is the all or nothing factor. When a debuff reduces you from 40% to like 10% mitigation, that's a huge damage increase for a magic damage dealer. The difference between dealing 60% damage and 90% damage is about a 50% increase in damage. If you don't have a beefy resist buff, you are likely mitigating 0-5% of that damage. I would like it more if the stat was widened enough so that a debuff would maybe bring you from 42% to 28% if you were heavily resist stacked and from 35% to 15% or 20% if you were invested on a more standard level.

It's hard to have soft cap without a buff or potion, and due to the necessity of the stat to avoid being bursted, it's just another reason why Chosen/Kotbs is a staple in every group.

Regarding Initiative reducing bonus crit damage, I don't knooow, it just sounds like a necessary stat, though many people favor initiative as is. I kind of like the thought of Toughness also reducing the crit damage you take or SOMETHING but that's definitely a point for speculation currently.

Nanji wrote:#4 Make armor easier to be accessible

no

illustration:
dok in devastor ~ 3k armor -> ws needed ca. 1000/550 (cap 825) buffed/debuffed (1360)
dok in warlord ~ 5k armor -> ws needed ca. 1600/1090 (cap 1050) buffed/debuffed (1600)

I think she was referring to armor value being closer together between different armor types. However, you do highlight the issue of Armor scaling vs the mechanics of Weapon Skill.