[WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

[GodlessCrom]

I would rather see other mdps buffed to the level of WL/Mara, rather than WL/Mara nerfed. RDPS is literally the easiest thing in the game to play, and its super powerful (who hasn't noticed the endless firing squads of sorc/magus and bw/engi that both factions use?), so nerfing MDPS isn't the way to go IMO. Rather, pinpoint why other MDPS underperform, and try fixing those issues.

Also, I think it would be good to see actual data and numbers used in these discussions: ex. how much damage does a WL do in a timestamp, f'rex? And how much damage does a different MDPS do in that same timestamp? That seems more useful, IMO, then the "well WL do burst dmg bruh" arguments I see everyone use. Also note, I don't play WL but I do play Marauder.

[freshour]

I've watched several WL and Mara streams/youtube videos from RoR and their damage seems pretty even with WL have a bit more burst potential minus M2, and Mara having more of a constant pressure. I know Mara has the M2 that it can cheese out in RvR as well though. As far as I can tell the only really big difference is a reliable pull and 1 more mobility move that shine/get noticed by the enemy (not saying there aren't other things). But yeah maybe if other melee were on par they could protect the ones who get pounced? Or maybe a 5 second CD on their CC immunity after they pounce? I wish some of the better WL's would swallow the pride (get it lion joke), /s - and chime in to get more context to the discussion.

[roadkillrobin]

Therein lies the age old question.. what do you balance around? Personally I like the idea of balancing around 6v6s (not even competitive.. just competent) and in this regard I don't think either class is overperforming. Maybe Mara because I think destro can viably make 2 Mara work in a 2-2-2 whereas order can't with WL (the pet is a liability I think)? I dunno but I don't think they're overperforming at this level.

6v6 is just horrible to use as core ballance as it's the least played format in the game aswell is holding both 12v12 18v18 and Warband scale back from it's full potential. Ballance should be made 12v12 for single target and 24v24 for AoE imo. Aslong as 6v6 is being dragged into the ballance it's just not possible to get a good ressault tbh. 12v12 and Warband scale is consitantly taking a blunt for the sake of 6v6 ballance and it's the moast played formats.

[th3gatekeeper]

Therein lies the age old question.. what do you balance around? Personally I like the idea of balancing around 6v6s (not even competitive.. just competent) and in this regard I don't think either class is overperforming. Maybe Mara because I think destro can viably make 2 Mara work in a 2-2-2 whereas order can't with WL (the pet is a liability I think)? I dunno but I don't think they're overperforming at this level.

@gate - I didn't say order need the ability; it's simply there which is why I think you see more people complain about it when they roll their fotm solo shammy (no disrespect intended). They're also not the only ones kiting, but they are in their own bracket of kite, which makes the pill hard to swallow when you get caught by nothing but WLs.

I dont think we need to focus on this question. Frankly... I think you can balance around other classes, not focused on 1 type of gameplay. So for example. Mara and WL are "mirrors" and should roughly perform similarly... As are classes like WE/WH/Choppa/Slayer - who are Melee Classes.

So we all agree WL/Mara are at the top of the food chain compared to its Archtype - so that is where the "nerf" should come. But then ALSO seeing discrepancies between the two mirror classes themselves... Thats where another area of potential "balance" can come.

Yeah I dont take it personally. But I also see other RDPS classes getting the brunt of the Pounce issue as well. Classes like Sorcs, or backline healers (non Shaman) I mean the utility of Pounce is pretty darn amazing... So thats my response - pounce isnt just a "counter" its a massive advantage this ONE melee DPS class gets to have to counter RDPS classes, and its VERY strong. (Yes, a nerf to Pounce would necessitate a nerf to Mara and YES I am aware pounce already was "nerfed" once).

I would rather see other mdps buffed to the level of WL/Mara, rather than WL/Mara nerfed. RDPS is literally the easiest thing in the game to play, and its super powerful (who hasn't noticed the endless firing squads of sorc/magus and bw/engi that both factions use?), so nerfing MDPS isn't the way to go IMO. Rather, pinpoint why other MDPS underperform, and try fixing those issues.

Also, I think it would be good to see actual data and numbers used in these discussions: ex. how much damage does a WL do in a timestamp, f'rex? And how much damage does a different MDPS do in that same timestamp? That seems more useful, IMO, then the "well WL do burst dmg bruh" arguments I see everyone use. Also note, I don't play WL but I do play Marauder.

I dont know how to do this and this starts throwing all sorts of balance out of whack man... Yes I agree RDPS meta pisses me off to no end some days... Somedays I quit out because I cant stand being kited to kingdom come in RVR, but then I go run a Gates of Ekrund or some SC where its close quarters and I take out my sweet sweet revenge on those RDPS bastards.

Also, there ARE actual numbers and threads that have commented and SS the classes burst, its definitely conclusive that WL is much higher burst damage however Mara offers more "utility" in the form of debuffs and what not. So thats the "tradeoff"....

So, out of 3 pages of chat, not 1 person who plays WL or Mara can offer any REAL solutions? What makes WL OP? What makes Mara OP?

I can tell you as a BG/Mara player myself, 1 thing that would be awesome is to adjust some of the redundancy between the classes... Mara + Chosen literally covers almost all the benefits of BG. So removing some of the Mara "utility" would make that redundancy smaller.


What about this: What if BOTH classes lost their armor debuff. This is one of the only "Equal" things both classes have. It equally nerfs both classes. This should (in theory) impact both classes equally because its the same thing: Armor Debuff.

it also makes Mara/WL dependent upon other classes to do this for them - giving them a weakness.
Then for WL, you could swap in something LIKE a Wounds OR heal debuff (they dont have one already do they?)
Then for Mara, you could swap in something they dont have that WL does? (Pounce is the only thing I know, and that was turned down, so what else could Mara get? Maybe a KD?)

[dansari]

6v6 is just horrible to use as core ballance

Yeah, well, that's like, just your opinion man. /s

Ultimately my opinion means nothing in the scope of the game. If you want to refer to 12v12 or 24v24 then imo there's less evidence that Mara/WL are overperforming but then you get into morales which leads to a discussion on morale bombs which leads to a discussion on morale gain rates which leads to "destro has broken morale tactics" which gets countered with "order has seventeen ranged kds and superior AP feed"

As others have said, WL/Mara don't need to be nerfed, but other mdps might need some love.

@gate -- to your original post, which I don't want to derail from: I don't think we all agree that WL/Mara are "OP" (are they the best mdps? Yes... but in competent group play or warband play they seem to be fine the majority of the time). However, if you were going to look for something to "nerf" I think it should be their damage, and not their utility.

They have it all... Damage, utility, mobility, etc. etc...

Slayer/choppa should be the highest dealing mdps classes on either side, but also have the highest risk involved. WL/Mara should be able to provide utility in group play where their damage doesn't match a slayer/choppa output, but they can provide core debuffs or w/e (much how I think about my SW compared to a BW -- I'm providing layered damage and debuffs/buffs and the BW will/should outdamage me in competent groups). That being said, I think this currently exists (SL dmg > WL dmg), it's just easier to keep a WL alive than it is a Slayer and you can't deal damage when you're dead.

[Daknallbomb]

Sry If you guys draw The rdps is easier than mdps.... Just closed the thread Cant Hear that **** anymore...
Every range setup got stomped bye a meele setup If Player skill is even....

Wl and mara are what they are the only Thing on wl is his great solo Potential because of nice mobility thats Wy most ppl cry about wl.

[freshour]

I think RvR RDPS is easier is what was implied. Obviously in most SC's aside from a few a solid RDPS group will get pounded by a competent melee group. Most of the discussion involving around RDPS and easy and all the salt (mine included) is in the open field of RvR

[Arbich]

Mara should lose Deadly Clutch. It makes 2 mara groups viable. Armor-debuff and wounds-debuff is nice, but a good heal debuff is more important. As it is a tactic in a tree, it needs a replacement. piercing bite might be a tactic worth 11 points, but it may destroy the versatility of possible mara-builds. What could be a good replacement for deadly clutch, that is now a core tactic?

As two WL are usually not considered a viable group setup, I think adjusting some skills/tactics might be enough. For example: Decrease the damage bonus from pack synergy to 30% and increase the damage from looner to 30%. You could also remove the speed proc from pounce again.

[Bozzax]

My .2$

Currently only order have active 6mans all more or less are WL centric?

(Cept stars team)

[Daknallbomb]

Its not easier. Its Just one Thing. With rdps you can Make kills in a 6 vs 30 and kite away thats not possibel with a meele setup . But even number and even Player skill The meele setup runs over The rdps setup or The rdps have to dodge a whole orvr zone