Slayers

[Bretin]

IMO slayers are just dead meat against above average groups.

even though i think slayer is the easiest to kill order mdps right now, i think it really depends on your personal and especially your groups skill.
calling slayer dead meat is a bit too much, his damage potential is still insanely good WHEN he is able to pull it off. to pull that off, he really needs above average tanks and heals + the capability to handle pressure and time cooldowns. at least when it comes to proper premade fights.

i think one thing the slayer cant do is going full glascannon when it comes to premade fights, one well timed CC during his enrage and he is RIP. Slayer and IB do have the same BFF relation ship as Swordmaster and White Lion. The Slayer can just be as good as his IB is but that's roughly how the realm works. Order do have an insane potential in terms of synergy while destru characters are way more selfish.

If you compare a grouped choppa to a grouped slayer - and i don't mean the class abilities itself - you will realize who does have a hard time and can be called dead meat. Slayer can have 40% more heal with the right group setup and his BFF IB who is necessary either way.

You cant really kite against marauders and you dont have any escape mechanisms that help you after the pull. So you are just dead in most cases.

it might sound a bit harsh now but i really think that's a l2p issue. from my PoV when fighting you, your tanks do NEVER taunt a pull. Also you could avoid the pull by using your m1 when you see TE animation to interrupt it. but instead of playing a bit more smart you are always the first one in the frontline. you are begging for the pull - again no offense it's just my observation -. there is no other premade slayer doing something equal than you do. you are infront of any tank even when your healers behind, i think i already pulled you multiple times out of any guard and heal range which ofc ends with an instant death. both your tanks and you should work on the overall performance and start working as a team before going to the forums and calling a class dead meat.

[Bretin]

When the 2h slayer/choppa performance is discussed, imo it should be measured by the only other 2h single target mDD that we have, the WL.
Not only are the slayer/choppa far more squishy when going full damage mode on 2h (thoughness self-debuff through tactic, initiative self-debuff, class mechanic, middle path crit tactic), but i doubt also that, even when he goes full squishie, he can do crucially more frontloaded (and reliable) burst damage than a WL.

Yet you seem to ignore close to everything the 2h slayer offers when comparing those classes. All you did was naming the drawbacks one class have under certain circumstances and the one thing the other class is great at. whether does anybody force you to use the crit tactic, the initiative debuff nor to slot the toughness decrease tactic.

Having a wounds debuff which is the third best debuff in the game when it comes to kill a target through guard and heal, a 100% crit debuff, a incoming healdebuff, spamable absorb remove, knockdown, group AP buff, 100% parry/block strike through, a 50% block/parry debuff, the single highest melee tooltip damage ability and a morale to negate both range and melee dps is really bad i agree. Oh and don't forget the pet related tactics, something a slayer does not have to deal with.

To sum it up: he has incredible utility potential, huge damage (burst and sustain) but lower defense, mobility and frontloaded burst than the WL - that's ofc when the requirements for both are given e.g. Pet is alive / Slayer is enraged. i think it's fair isn't it?

just in case anyone will try to dismantle my first statement regarding the slayer:

again: the slayer is clearly not bad and his kit is incredible. he has one drawback: he can be pressured super easy and relies more on his group than other mdps does. but that's exactly how he should work. if you wouldn't be able to pressure him easier than other classes he would be OP bc he would outperform them with both damage & utility. hence that's why i called him NOT op (that's what the topic is about)!

i said "the slayer is whether hard to kill nor does he deal too much damage". That's related to his necessary drawback: the rage mechanic. if he has to drop rage, his damage is not higher than those of a WH or a WL but you simply can't ignore him and let him be enraged as destru. even when he is not enraged his utility is still insanely good.

"he IS the easiest to kill mdps order has." - thanks to his rage! and yes nothing should ever be changed here, if he wants to be able to deal with pressure he should be forced to get defensive via renown and tactics to reduce his own damage potential. in no way should he be able to unleash his damage potential, utility and defensive tools like he did on live during the last years. he is just fine as he is.

"i am honestly saying that the groups which includes a slayer are the easiest to beat for us." - might be related to the fact that there is not a single top tier group supporting their slayer like they should nor a slayer knowing how to handle rage and dev cd's. and again he should really have drawbacks compared to other mdps. if you let him do work, he will destroy you faster than any other mdps.

"shatter limbs might be annoying and is clearly an insanely good ability but without it the slayer would deliver close to nothing besides some fluff aoe dmg when being compared to other mdps." - that's ofc related to a NON ENRAGED slayer. if he can do work and unleash his potential he performs ofc better than other mdps and that should be exactly like this.

[areanda]

seems nazgul is doing something to ya bretin. HAHAHA dont be angry at them h8te the game instead. ( reminds me of the cow movie ... She wasnt ready !

[Toldavf]

I miss playing slayer a bit now

[Cimba]

Let me resphrase my statement. I can't currently advise to play slayer if you don't have freaking good tanks to keep you alive. Because your own means to do it are inferior to any other order mdps.

You cant really kite against marauders and you dont have any escape mechanisms that help you after the pull. So you are just dead in most cases.

it might sound a bit harsh now but i really think that's a l2p issue. from my PoV when fighting you, your tanks do NEVER taunt a pull. Also you could avoid the pull by using your m1 when you see TE animation to interrupt it. but instead of playing a bit more smart you are always the first one in the frontline. you are begging for the pull - again no offense it's just my observation -. there is no other premade slayer doing something equal than you do. you are infront of any tank even when your healers behind, i think i already pulled you multiple times out of any guard and heal range which ofc ends with an instant death. both your tanks and you should work on the overall performance and start working as a team before going to the forums and calling a class dead meat.

I don't want to derail this thread with my own short commings so I will send you a PM.

[Luth]

When the 2h slayer/choppa performance is discussed, imo it should be measured by the only other 2h single target mDD that we have, the WL.
Not only are the slayer/choppa far more squishy when going full damage mode on 2h (thoughness self-debuff through tactic, initiative self-debuff, class mechanic, middle path crit tactic), but i doubt also that, even when he goes full squishie, he can do crucially more frontloaded (and reliable) burst damage than a WL.

Yet you seem to ignore close to everything the 2h slayer offers when comparing those classes. All you did was naming the drawbacks one class have under certain circumstances and the one thing the other class is great at. whether does anybody force you to use the crit tactic, the initiative debuff nor to slot the toughness decrease tactic.

Having a wounds debuff which is the third best debuff in the game when it comes to kill a target through guard and heal, a 100% crit debuff, a incoming healdebuff, spamable absorb remove, knockdown, group AP buff, 100% parry/block strike through, a 50% block/parry debuff, the single highest melee tooltip damage ability and a morale to negate both range and melee dps is really bad i agree. Oh and don't forget the pet related tactics, something a slayer does not have to deal with.

To sum it up: he has incredible utility potential, huge damage (burst and sustain) but lower defense, mobility and frontloaded burst than the WL - that's ofc when the requirements for both are given e.g. Pet is alive / Slayer is enraged. i think it's fair isn't it?

I wrote that he is far more squishy when he goes on full damage mode; i didn't write he is forced to do it.
I also forgot to mention that his detaunt is on a 30 second cooldown with only 5 seconds duration and still 50AP. The slayer/choppa has the worst detaunt of all melee DDs. This should be considered too.

Almost all of his utility abilities are exhaustive blows; so a knockdown is not just just a knockdow, it's also a damage drop. Which is completely fine imo, except that shatter limbs is not exhaustive, which makes no sense and should be changed.
The usefulness of the "untouchable" M1 depends heavily on your parry, dodge and disrupt values; i wouldn't say it's good per default. "Confusing movements" is the way better choice for slayers who don't stack defenses.

I also think that the 100% crit chance reduce ability is far too powerful and shouldn't exist on any DD class; it should be available to tank classes and more probably only in a weaker form.

When people say "2h slayer" they mean normally "2h slayer with power through"; i mean the 2h build with "violent impacts" and exhaustive attack spam in the yellow stance as often as possible to utilize the 75% damage buff. Needless to say that the knockdown is virtually never available and the AA speed and AA damage are also lower.
While the slayers general squishines is not as high as with "power through", the burst potential relies not only on lucky crits, but also on lucky "violent impacts" procs. I already tested this often and it is far to unreliable compared to the WL. And when i spec a 2h single target burst build, i want to burst someone with a decent chance.

In case this is all about about 2h with "power through":
Okay, the utility is always available and doesn't cause a damage drop.
He is very squishy and in "berserk", the AA speed and AA damage is also higher.
But why 2h for this? For the wounds debuff or some absorb-remove ability with questionable usefulness at the price of loosing "shatter limbs"?
Imo the problem is that, besides the wounds debuff and absorb remove, everything can be done with dualwield too.
The base tooltip damage on "spine crusher" is the same as on "spellbreaker"; so the tooltip damage gain from 9pts "spine crusher" vs 14 points "spellbreaker" is 484 vs 504. Though the positional requirement restricts it's use sometimes.
After 10 seconds, the yellow stance merges into the red. If the slayer gets too early in fight/can't deliver some decent damage before the red stance, the 25% damage advantage is gone and the 2H build is, DPS wise, imo not better than the ID build, while the slayer has virtually no possibility to drop his rage anymore.

I don't think the slayer (2H or dualwield) is weak or the WL better, but i think the incentive to spec into 2H build(s) is not big enough. And as you even wrote by yourself elsewere on this forum: the (damage-)loss of the WL pet can be compensated by slotting "revenge".

I also wrote "slayer/choppa" because i think the choppa's 2H path is worse, but that's something for another thread.