People not joining SC's

[kintari]

This is happening a lot lately, so let me put it on the record: You're all actually testers, therefore the queue won't be removed. Please don't complain when you end up having to serve your purpose to this project.

If you want the players to consider themselves testers -- a view which I think has some merit -- then disrespectful comments have no place, because after all, you are talking with a community of people who freely donate their time to test your hobby project. You can't have it both ways.

So how about the community, you included, stop being disrespectful and demanding asses and contribute to this project?
And for the love of w/e , DO make a difference between spending time PLAYING on a server and actually DEVELOPING the server. People playing here are donating NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Yes they help with reports and such but please , just please do not come out saying that they donate their time. Reconsider your words when you gonna publicly make a clown out of yourself.

I have actually contributed a small amount to RoR's code. I would like to continue to contribute more, but I will not work with one hand tied behind my back. I have also publicly offered to do server-side LOS checks -- something which I am quite capable of doing -- in a way that requires no source code access from RoR, and this was met with no response. So, while I understand your need to rush to Az's defense, you should probably look through the source code applications forum, or even my past post history, before posting something else like this.

[Azarael]

I'd just like to say with regards to the recruiting / contribution of work situation that I'm not involved in it. Access to the code falls under the purview of those with blue names, and if I remember correctly your previous interactions when contributing code were with Dana.

[Ley]

So how about the community, you included, stop being disrespectful and demanding asses and contribute to this project?
And for the love of w/e , DO make a difference between spending time PLAYING on a server and actually DEVELOPING the server. People playing here are donating NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Yes they help with reports and such but please , just please do not come out saying that they donate their time. Reconsider your words when you gonna publicly make a clown out of yourself.

I have actually contributed a small amount to RoR's code. I would like to continue to contribute more, but I will not work with one hand tied behind my back. I have also publicly offered to do server-side LOS checks -- something which I am quite capable of doing -- in a way that requires no source code access from RoR, and this was met with no response. So, while I understand your need to rush to Az's defense, you should probably look through the source code applications forum, or even my past post history, before posting something else like this.

I am not rushing to Aza's defense. I have been involved in server developing and managing (not WAR) and i know how this goes.
I am sure that people are grateful for what you did, but snaping at someone that actually DONATES his time for random people to have something fun to play is really a very bad approach.
You noticed his posts in the past 2 weeks. Have you noticed that he is pretty much the only one to even reply people's posts? He develops, does GM jobs, MOD job ... and you, all you see is that his responses were't all pinky and fluffy and nice? Really?
Also , not his fault that the management did not accept or reply to your application.
So if you wanna let some steam off, make sure you find the right person.

[kintari]

If you disagree with my main point, I would encourage you to review your post history over the last 2 weeks or so. Your comments can stand on their own, and players can judge for themselves. All I am saying is, if I communicated with testers at work the way that you communicate with the player base sometimes, I would catch serious **** for it, and justifiably so.

If you wish to communicate with and deal with actual testers on a more professional level, it might be time (as others have suggested here) to reopen the idea of a PTS with a limited set of players whose attitudes you can tolerate for longer periods of time.

I have never believed in sugarcoating when I do not have to, nor do I have any employer to satisfy within this project. Therefore, you may find that I deliver honest, open and perhaps disrespectful responses rather than maintaining a facade, simply because I'm not obligated to be anyone other than my true self. I consider that to be a luxury afforded by the nature of this project, and fully accept that it would be suppressed if circumstances were different.

If you feel there are occasions where I have overstepped the line, I'd be interested to know. My worst responses are likely to be those dealt to people who do not read the stickies in the support forums, and within the Group Queue request thread.

Oh, and this:

Known and not my problem. All I care about is the group queue right now. Any other issues that come out as the result of other people's requests are their problem.

should definitely not have been posted - I will happily apologise for that.

Not everyone is going to like or agree with how I behave - such is the risk with being oneself rather than presenting a professional mask. I have never wanted to present myself as yet another all-too-nice developer who is a punching bag for entitled people, or as someone who interacts with the community distantly, through a wall of false politeness.

We do have a number of internal testers, however there are not enough of them and they are not available consecutively for long enough to do solid testing on the group queue.

I'm not asking for sugar-coating, simply pointing what I see as an attempt to have it both ways. I certainly wouldn't ask you to change your personality for the sake of randoms on the internet, but my original point -- if you want players to view themselves as testers, then perhaps it is fitting they be treated more as such -- still stands.

I think what you are learning here is that (1) any collection of randoms that can sign up for a game does not a good tester base make, and (2) having to be in the position of deciding requirements, design and implementation, and community management, is a lot to deal with, and can easily burn a person out.

[Azarael]

Then I guess that it is time to do what we should have done a long time ago, and more clearly set out what is to be expected of players joining this project, and what will be received in return.

I had believed that it would be nice to offer an experience that was as playable as possible, and actually care about what was presented to the players, while still accepting the underlying truth that the project is an alpha (as others within the project consider it to be). I will admit that I'm struggling to see how that was necessarily a bad thing.

Agreed on both of your points, by the way.

[kintari]

I'd just like to say with regards to the recruiting / contribution of work situation that I'm not involved in it. Access to the code falls under the purview of those with blue names, and if I remember correctly your previous interactions when contributing code were with Dana.

Yes, you are correct about this. I don't hold you (or Dana) responsible for any of this, and it's not something that needs to be further discussed in this thread IMO.

[kintari]

So how about the community, you included, stop being disrespectful and demanding asses and contribute to this project?
And for the love of w/e , DO make a difference between spending time PLAYING on a server and actually DEVELOPING the server. People playing here are donating NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Yes they help with reports and such but please , just please do not come out saying that they donate their time. Reconsider your words when you gonna publicly make a clown out of yourself.

I have actually contributed a small amount to RoR's code. I would like to continue to contribute more, but I will not work with one hand tied behind my back. I have also publicly offered to do server-side LOS checks -- something which I am quite capable of doing -- in a way that requires no source code access from RoR, and this was met with no response. So, while I understand your need to rush to Az's defense, you should probably look through the source code applications forum, or even my past post history, before posting something else like this.

I am not rushing to Aza's defense. I have been involved in server developing and managing (not WAR) and i know how this goes.
I am sure that people are grateful for what you did, but snaping at someone that actually DONATES his time for random people to have something fun to play is really a very bad approach.
You noticed his posts in the past 2 weeks. Have you noticed that he is pretty much the only one to even reply people's posts? He develops, does GM jobs, MOD job ... and you, all you see is that his responses were't all pinky and fluffy and nice? Really?
Also , not his fault that the management did not accept or reply to your application.
So if you wanna let some steam off, make sure you find the right person.

I'm not letting steam off, or snapping. I'd still happily contribute to RoR if they came to me with something that we could both find workable, and I appreciate the work that Az does (as you can see earlier in this thread) and the information that he provides. There are no hard feelings. I don't expect pink fluffy bunny responses. I just don't expect certain kinds of communication towards people who, you heard it here, are officially testers.

[Ley]

You should know how difficult is to please everybody and keep your cool when complete asshats point fingers at you for no reason what so ever.

And to be perfectly blunt, this server would not go on without Azarael. With that being said, i hope people understand his actions and value his hard work... because after all, he does not do it for himself. He does it for "ALL OF US" .

[kintari]

You should know how difficult is to please everybody and keep your cool when complete asshats point fingers at you for no reason what so ever.

And to be perfectly blunt, this server would not go on without Azarael. With that being said, i hope people understand his actions and value his hard work... because after all, he does not do it for himself. He does it for "ALL OF US" .

Of course we do. I hope I didn't say anything in this thread that implied otherwise -- I don't think I did.

Even so, the devs are not beyond criticism, and to criticize constructively is not an attack, but a sign that you actually give a **** about the project. Az has handled being criticized well, and I've said pretty much all that I feel needs to be said on that matter. Thank you.

[bumik]

A lot of people compare RoR to the live, which in one way is goal for this game to be like, but It probably won't be 100% live. I mean, there's small team of dedicated people hardly working on this project and they do what is in their power to make this game as good as possible, but it is a long time shoot and it will progress slowly. As to introduction of new features like GQ, of course there will be problems with it, you can't expect anything to be perfect on the first hatch. But some people today are so ungrateful that they complain about anything given to them for free (don't look a gift horse in the mouth). Despite this, many of us understand the role we have here and we really wish to see this server in a full strength. We enjoy the gameplay as it is and really appreciate anyhing that pushes this game forwards.
If I may note to Aza's attitude, it's important to have some kind of respect towards any of the devs here as they are not to be responsible towards us about their work. I mean if people ask stupid questions or are rude in any way, they deserve what they get in return.

Faithfully your
Bumik