peterthepan3 wrote:Respawning in the keep when the outer door is still up being the worst offender.
this. one should NEVER spawn in battlefield objectives IMHO. How silly is that you let you kill deliberatly to have a fastpath to the keep?
i also dont think we have to change the nature of single target classes BUT give them something viable to do in RVR and in Keep Sieges. Picklock is nice but i think its to complicated with that 10s buff especially when you want to coordinate more then some people to enter the back. Why not just let certain classes use postern door, finished?
An perhaps give one healing class acces to picklock?
That way the posterns have to be guarded not only by 3-5 gankers but a substantial number and thus decreasing the zerg at the tunnel.
Re: Mara vs WL
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:37 am
by Scrilian
Zanilos wrote:
Uhhh, no. Instead of taking away a lot of specs/classes from what the majority of the community plays, we should focus on nerfing the specs that are outperforming/silly in RvR. Alot of people would assume that I want to bomb in the lakes. I assure you. I don't.
BUT... And this is the killer. If you want a WB. You simply have no choice to stack BW a couple slayers and a dps RP for good measure (as order).
Don't make it sound like "Le Bombing is wrong".
Bombing by some ridiculous miscalculations on the Mythic part is what made/makes this game unique in regards to open combat on a large scale. It's already nerfed and is no way near the absurd levels of what it used to be - but still is one of the best parts of WAR.
Bombing is already tactical to the point that you can flank the enemy WBs that are distracted, burn their healers quickly and win a fight as 24v100 even against a premade-warbands. Nerfing it even more or even overall changing RvR to be more single-target centric would just result in that the enemy zerg by default will have time to turn around and react regardless of your brilliant flanking manoeuvre because your impact will be times lower.
Surely it has its problems with class representation and somewhat lack of intuitive zerg-breaking mechanics, esp. respawning in keeps just has to go, but, this will be triggering :^) - there is absolutely nothing wrong with having bombing-centric meta in my opinion.
I say buff the underperforming classes close to BW/Sorc levels. WL could have Whirling axe be changed to a GTDC-pull like the one Choppa have. Dragon gun and OYK should get more damage, lower CDs, may be apply more debuffs. Same for SH/SW and other never seen in the "meta" classes.
At least one great aoe build for everyone is the thing to strive for and possibilities are limitless
>herp derp aoe is bad and you should feel bad like lowskilled zerging pleb you are
AOE is great, embrace it.
>move away from a pure AOE meta and promote more RvR diversity.
Geez, if I wanted to play massive singletarget-centric combat I would've stuck with Ranked BGs in wow :^)
Re: Mara vs WL
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:01 am
by Marsares
Scrilian wrote:Don't make it sound like "Le Bombing is wrong".
Le Bombing is not wrong per se, but unfortunately it is wrong as it currently stands. Why? Because (a) it's the only viable WB play-style to be competitive in RvR and thus it kills diversity in the lakes, (b) it pushes certain classes out of this play-style who thus do not get a look into an organised WB and (c) bombing combined with a meta that promotes zerging exacerbates the issue.
You're advocating to give some more ST-centric classes a bit more AOE. I can already tell you know that will not get them a place in a bombing WB. Changing Whirling Axe on the WL... seriously? The irony is that you actually underline your own sarcastic statement of later on ("lowskilled zerging pleb"), as what you're proposing will turn those classes largely in a one-button mashing class, i.e. lowskilled. It also moves them away from their original purpose.
Disclaimer:
I used to be part of Crimson on Karak Norn, our GL Redek practically invented bombing. Now I'm part of Kings Own, the dominant bombing force on Order. Is it fun? Of course not.
Is it low-skilled compared to ST-assist trains. of course it is.
Is it time to have more RVR diversity? Definitely.
Should we turn ST classes into wanna-be AOE ones? Definitely not.
P.S. I'm not saying that bombing should go, that would kill diversity as well. However, it either needs to be toned down so other WB play-styles have a look-in, or the meta needs to be changed so the zerg gets split up and thus bombing gets less powerful. AOE plus ST should work of each other in the Meta, not one at the cost of the other.
Re: Mara vs WL
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:07 am
by roadkillrobin
All dps classes should be viable as single target and aoe. And all dps classes were designed that way aswell. However, along the line with some bad original designs stupid descisions from devs to blanket nerfs AoE has hurt some classes much more then others. And some just weren't properly tested. WL was NOT designed to be exclusivly a single target dps. Path of Hunter were designed so your pet would attack one target while you another one. And both you and pet had AoE attacks. This didn't work out ofc coz pet gets instakilled. And they didn't bother to fix it.
Re: Mara vs WL
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:13 am
by Tiggo
wl pet should get its own aoe detaunt.
Re: Mara vs WL
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:19 am
by Lileldys
Pets already take half damage from AoE.
Re: Mara vs WL
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:25 am
by Azarael
Regarding the bomb meta, I have only one thing to say:
Don't get used to it.
Re: Mara vs WL
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:27 am
by Luth
Scrilian wrote:
[...]
Bombing by some ridiculous miscalculations on the Mythic part is what made/makes this game unique in regards to open combat on a large scale. It's already nerfed and is no way near the absurd levels of what it used to be - but still is one of the best parts of WAR. It is a bit strange that you write that bombing is ridicolous and absurd, while it is your oppinion that is one of the best parts of that game.
Bombing is already tactical to the point that you can flank the enemy WBs that are distracted, burn their healers quickly and win a fight as 24v100 even against a premade-warbands. Nerfing it even more or even overall changing RvR to be more single-target centric would just result in that the enemy zerg by default will have time to turn around and react regardless of your brilliant flanking manoeuvre because your impact will be times lower. Flanking is a RvR tactic by itself; everyone can do it, it doesn't prove that bombing needs a noticable amount of playerskill.
Surely it has its problems with class representation and somewhat lack of intuitive zerg-breaking mechanics, esp. respawning in keeps just has to go, but, this will be triggering :^) - there is absolutely nothing wrong with having bombing-centric meta in my opinion. Maybe some people want to be part of the open RvR without being forced into bombing or joining the biggest zerg; there are different motivations to play this game. Every contribution to the open RvR should count, not only the biggest zerg spamming the most AOE.
I say buff the underperforming classes close to BW/Sorc levels. WL could have Whirling axe be changed to a GTDC-pull like the one Choppa have. Dragon gun and OYK should get more damage, lower CDs, may be apply more debuffs. Same for SH/SW and other never seen in the "meta" classes.
At least one great aoe build for everyone is the thing to strive for and possibilities are limitless
[...] Yeah raising the general AOE damage output further will absolutely cause no problems and will be fun for everyone.
Re: Mara vs WL
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:32 am
by Tiggo
Azarael wrote:Regarding the bomb meta, I have only one thing to say:
Don't get used to it.
uhuhuh ^^^good im having quite ANY order class max
Re: Mara vs WL
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:36 am
by Scrilian
Marsares wrote:
Spoiler:
Scrilian wrote:Don't make it sound like "Le Bombing is wrong".
Le Bombing is not wrong per se, but unfortunately it is wrong as it currently stands. Why? Because (a) it's the only viable WB play-style to be competitive in RvR and thus it kills diversity in the lakes, (b) it pushes certain classes out of this play-style who thus do not get a look into an organised WB and (c) bombing combined with a meta that promotes zerging exacerbates the issue.
You're advocating to give some more ST-centric classes a bit more AOE. I can already tell you know that will not get them a place in a bombing WB. Changing Whirling Axe on the WL... seriously? The irony is that you actually underline your own sarcastic statement of later on ("lowskilled zerging pleb"), as what you're proposing will turn those classes largely in a one-button mashing class, i.e. lowskilled. It also moves them away from their original purpose.
Disclaimer:
I used to be part of Crimson on Karak Norn, our GL Redek practically invented bombing. Now I'm part of Kings Own, the dominant bombing force on Order. Is it fun? Of course not.
Is it low-skilled compared to ST-assist trains. of course it is.
Is it time to have more RVR diversity? Definitely.
Should we turn ST classes into wanna-be AOE ones? Definitely not.
P.S. I'm not saying that bombing should go, that would kill diversity as well. However, it either needs to be toned down so other WB play-styles have a look-in, or the meta needs to be changed so the zerg gets split up and thus bombing gets less powerful. AOE plus ST should work of each other in the Meta, not one at the cost of the other.
So to summarise:
- singletarget is much more skillful - the meme invented by our dearest 6man community, that just nuke one target after another with the ocasional M1, guard punt or healer stagger. Much skill indeed :^)
- bombing is one-button mashing - most builds revolve around at least 5 or more and a group to support it, not much different from ST with relatively same buffs, cc and cooldowns. This statement makes me a bit curious about the state of KO bombing in general.
- some excel at bombing but others don't so none should because original purpose (whatever it means is definitely not RvR)
- diversity should come from nerfs but not from buffs - debatable
- equalise the importance of ST and AOE in the game of massive 100+vs100+ battles - fantasy land stuff
- witnessed bombing from the hell pits it came from - irrelevant
- bombing is not fun - oh boy
Azarael wrote:Regarding the bomb meta, I have only one thing to say:
