Return of Reckoning

peterthepan3 wrote:Half of the game's classes/specs are useless for WB... classes such as WL/WH/WE should have their focus primarily for 6man scale/smallscale, given the nature of their mechanic/how they play.

Uhhh, no. Instead of taking away a lot of specs/classes from what the majority of the community plays, we should focus on nerfing the specs that are outperforming/silly in RvR. Alot of people would assume that I want to bomb in the lakes. I assure you. I don't.

BUT... And this is the killer. If you want a WB. You simply have no choice to stack BW a couple slayers and a dps RP for good measure (as order). Our destro setup uses a few more tools to stop BW building morale so fast.

If what we saw tonight, 2 PF wbs being followed by "small scale" guilds and blobbing everything in sight continues, then RvR is essentially over until city sieges (assuming we get the post 1.3.5 iteration) are in the game. We are being killed by AOE caps atm. We literally have no anti blob tools. Not a single one. With the exception of funneling in keeps for 3 hours.

But who really wants to do that?

The white lion class is a single-target burst MDPS. It provides the highest armor debuff in the game, has pounce for getting to individual targets to deliver huge frontloaded burst.

I would love to see all classes viable in WB and 6man scale, but I feel that the WL as it stands now should have a few tweaks (most of which have been mentioned/suggested already) so it is on par with the marauder in 6man scale (because it isn't, due to reasons that have been mentioned already). Making it viable in a WB would probably be a bigger undertaking, and require quite a few changes/nerfs (as you have said) given that aoe burst dps/aoe heal debuff are already provided by a few select classes - but it would be nice to see all classes performing well in all areas of PvP.

WL in a WB setting will always struggle as they don't offer anything apart from some mediocre damage.
If their AoE had some kind of synergy with something it could be used.

You take BW for high dps, Slayer for Fluff/ShatterLimbs, Engi for Pulls, SW for unguarded bomb, and WH dragongun AoE healdebuff on heals(Yeh its kinda useful).
Destro is basically the same, but also get mara for morale stripping. Maybe something like that is what WL needs?(Warband Wise)

Zanilos wrote:

peterthepan3 wrote:Half of the game's classes/specs are useless for WB... classes such as WL/WH/WE should have their focus primarily for 6man scale/smallscale, given the nature of their mechanic/how they play.

Uhhh, no. Instead of taking away a lot of specs/classes from what the majority of the community plays, we should focus on nerfing the specs that are outperforming/silly in RvR. Alot of people would assume that I want to bomb in the lakes. I assure you. I don't.

BUT... And this is the killer. If you want a WB. You simply have no choice to stack BW a couple slayers and a dps RP for good measure (as order). Our destro setup uses a few more tools to stop BW building morale so fast.

If what we saw tonight, 2 PF wbs being followed by "small scale" guilds and blobbing everything in sight continues, then RvR is essentially over until city sieges (assuming we get the post 1.3.5 iteration) are in the game. We are being killed by AOE caps atm. We literally have no anti blob tools. Not a single one. With the exception of funneling in keeps for 3 hours.

But who really wants to do that?

Putting emphasis on non zerg v zerg warfare (keep D/O) within and possibly outside the lakes (VP system accounting for SC's etc...) could open up new possibilities for classes and specs that do not perform well currently in ORvR.

Ganking is certainly an avenue, but I don't believe it punishes players that much when they get picked off. Respawning in the keep when the outer door is still up being the worst offender. We have also seen certain mechanics like the couriers being implemented but just ended up being a beacon for the zergs are it was a mandatory function.

RvR system needs to be revamped to promote many things going on at once, that will punish a realm for zerging (outside of where it is natural like keeps and maybe some valuble BO chokes) but also breathe meaning into those smaller tasks that can now be performed by solo players or small groups.

This means things like BO timers need to be looked at and revamped or removed all together, having to have a constant presence or risk losing BO's would certainly force the zerg to split up. But this also means that what BO's do for the zone will also needs to be adjusted, having to control 3 BO's to even do anything at a keep when it requires constant protection would certainly be as cancerous as previous iterations of the SC contribution to VP or the old courier missions.

tl:dr instead of making balance changes to classes to allow them to fight on par in the current AoE bomb meta in ORvR, change the environment and conditions to allow for more varied playstyles making the meta more flexible. Every class, size of group, and playstyle should be able to find a useful niche that helps out the campaign in some way.

>this thread is about white lions and marauder :^))))

What he said ^

On a serious note.....

Make AoE stagger last 30 seconds and give it a longer immunity. Then give all healers an additional ST ability to cleanse stagger. That should fix ORVR.

Vigfuss wrote:On a serious note.....

Make AoE stagger last 30 seconds and give it a longer immunity. Then give all healers an additional ST ability to cleanse stagger. That should fix ORVR.

That's the Marc Jacobs inside of you talking

Don't worry, CU is around the corner

magter3001 wrote:

Vigfuss wrote:On a serious note.....

Make AoE stagger last 30 seconds and give it a longer immunity. Then give all healers an additional ST ability to cleanse stagger. That should fix ORVR.

That's the Marc Jacobs inside of you talking

Don't worry, CU is around the corner

haha... It's more DAoC than CU i think, but we'll see. You never know. I still think the stagger nerf was a bad decision, but cleansing in WAR is so much dumbed down from DAoC, i see why they did it.

Unorganized zergs are never a problem, but these coordinated zergs are something different. I think anti zerg tools could help a bit here if it's done right.

I would agree with Echosta, Jaycub and Peterthepan.

In Peter's words, "the white lion class is a single-target burst MDPS. It provides the highest armor debuff in the game, has pounce for getting to individual targets to deliver huge frontloaded burst."

We should not endeavour to make the WL viable in WBs by giving him more AOE damage. It's not its purpose, it's not what it was designed to do and given all that it will always remain a mediocre AOE mDPS. What's more, it would diminish variety in RvR.

Instead, we should seek to have the WL retain its highly mobile single-target front-loaded burst role, but allow it a role in a WB by changing the meta. Like Echosta said, RvR as it currently stands is about stacking AOE and funnelling, and that's not fun anyone on the long-term. We should have a meta that provides some zerg-busting tools, discourages blobbing by using BOs or zone-locks in different ways, and provides ST classes like WH/WE and WL with a role.

Granted, that is not an easy ask and I cannot pretend I have the answer to this. All I know is that trying to adopt ST classes to an AOE meta would be the wrong avenue to pursue, instead we should move away from a pure AOE meta and promote more RvR diversity.

Marsares wrote:
Granted, that is not an easy ask and I cannot pretend I have the answer to this. All I know is that trying to adopt ST classes to an AOE meta would be the wrong avenue to pursue, instead we should move away from a pure AOE meta and promote more RvR diversity.

this 100%