Return of Reckoning

Scrilian wrote:If your whole argument revolved around your feels about these tactics being too good - better look at the 13pt kotbs sidetrees abilites and tactics like Efficient Swings or Sunfury. which are almost never taken.
Buff/change them and the so called problem will cease to exist. But I guess better nerf Kotbs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The problem is not those tactics the problem is that EA/DT/FM are quite simply 2good

let me put it in a prespective im sure you can relate to

You play slayer...i think you play 2h slayer right?

either way you know of the 2h slayer tree, do you think its a weak tree? do you feel its up? hardly right? 2H slayer is good

then why do pretty much 90% of the slayers go ID, SL 4 button ez mode combo slayer?

because of how strong it is that it overshadows other options

Not relevant at all. 2H slayer needs atleast the 4th tactic slot and 40rank to work properly, while ID is easier solo due not having to stay in red, when there is no group to back you up, great against current rather low hp pools in t3 and the devastation it can do with WW even without the Deep Wound heal debuff, esp. vs pugs.
ID can't even compete with Spellbreaker later on, coz most of ID specced slayer damage is fluff with higher mitigation and hp pools. Never saw ID over SB in 6v6 unless there were 2 slayers but that was, again, prior to 80+ patch.

To me kotbs passive utility problem - is that 13pt abilities from Conq and Glory are utter shiit. Glory has it a bit easier with elem damage tactic, but Conq is just bleh.
It's not like ppl playing passive buff bot coz they love it, which I sincerely doubt is the case, its because other stuff is worthless at best. But I'm no knight player, could be wrong

Scrilian wrote:Not relevant at all. 2H slayer needs atleast the 4th tactic slot and 40rank to work properly, while ID is easier solo due not having to stay in red, when there is no group to back you up, great against current rather low hp pools in t3 and the devastation it can do with WW even without the Deep Wound heal debuff, esp. vs pugs.
ID can't even compete with Spellbreaker later on, coz most of ID specced slayer damage is fluff with higher mitigation and hp pools. Never saw ID over SB in 6v6 unless there were 2 slayers but that was, again, prior to 80+ patch.

To me kotbs passive utility problem - is that 13pt abilities from Conq and Glory are utter shiit. Glory has it a bit easier with elem damage tactic, but Conq is just bleh.
It's not like ppl playing passive buff bot coz they love it, which I sincerely doubt is the case, its because other stuff is worthless at best. But I'm no knight player, could be wrong

Ive felt and posted the same before.

Efficient Swings is garbage...
Staggering Impact - Meh... When you softcap strength + positioning can give you advantages already. Sure this helps your group but it is pretty lack luster as noone ever says "LF 2H Tank that has SI"... Why? Because its not very good. Usually people just want a SnB buff bot who puts a slayer on /follow.

I get that we want all classes to be "unique" however if they are TOO unique it causes balance issues...

We all know encouraged Aim is mandatory. Probably one of the best things in the entire Mastery Tree. This is why (IMO) it should be moved UP and replace "Efficient swings".

Efficient swings COULD be changed to work like "Hastened Divinity" (See WP) - where after you crit, increases AA speed by 50% for 10 seconds, or there are MANY other options to choose from.... Like "Crippling Strikes" is AMAZING and I would LOVE that on a Knight.....

Im still pretty sold on the idea of swapping "Staggering Impacts" tool tip with "heaven's Fury" in that it would deal: ~190-215 damage (hard hitting) to enemies within 40 feet of you and stagger them for 3 seconds. But now ALSO require a 2H weapon.... This could be on a 20 sec CD to avoid Spam

Then Heavens Fury would be an AoE shoots out from you dealing DoT + reduces chance to defend attacks.

Now the tree (and the knight) would be MUCH more appealing as a DPS spec and I would argue equally "viable" in most settings to a SnB.... (Especially if you combined the new Stagger Impact and IF Knights were given Crippling Strikes too)

Penril wrote:
2) The class has several good specs, tactics and skills. Yet everyone always goes for the same cookie-cutter build because it is more powerful than the others. In this case, the tactics/skills in this cookie-cutter build should be looked into and adjust them accordingly so they no longer out-perform the other tactics/skills which are already good (and therefore don't need a buff).

I firmly believe KotBs fits in the second group, and i am willing to explain why. As long as i dont get memes, adjectives, or "¯\_(ツ)_/¯" in reply.

Why? Because of destro bias burden you seem to have. KOtbS has, at least, 4 viable builds (actually, even more). Which category is that? So, instead of improving overall system you tend to degenerate it.
How about buffing Chosen, instead?

And no, it's not about - AAAA!!! they want to take our IMBA from us - it's about options. More options - more interest in the overall game. Let the Knight be - create options for the rest.

WAR needs some sharp corners softening, not turning into dull experience. But now we have signs for heading exactly in that "blablalance" direction.

Btw, dear Dev team, you can not control everything and can not control players behavior, so if you don't have courage and wisdom to let players do their thing. Mirror everything already. WAR will be dead, but balancing done.

Oh, if you have some concept in mind, of course. If not, and all will be decided by simple democracy - WAR is screwed anyway.
In swift and final forum-pvp battle forces of Destruction will, at last!, devour those wretched fellows pretending to be "Order". End of Times complete, dawn of the Age of Sigmar...

Aquilon wrote:Mirror everything already. WAR will be dead, but balancing done.

I dont think everyone wants pure "mirror" but there seem to be some clear examples of things being better than others because of not being a good mirror....

A good example of this is WP "Grace" versus DoK. Why does Grace fail?

If you dont make things "comparable" thats when frustration sets it. Noone is saying make things mimic exactly...

Aquilon wrote:
Why? Because of destro bias burden you seem to have. KOtbS has, at least, 4 viable builds (actually, even more). Which category is that? So, instead of improving overall system you tend to degenerate it.
How about buffing Chosen, instead?

That is category 2 of course (several viable specs); still, most go for Tri-spec.

Chosen don't need a buff.

Not gonna reply to the rest of your post since basically it is just "AAAA!!! they want to take our IMBA from us!!!".

Penril wrote:

Soulcheg wrote:You shouldn't. It means - all you can do, is a talking about nerfing something, what means, again, that you are no use to this game.

I like it because it is the best they can come up with when i suggest nerfs to KotBS. And yes, this nerf-mod will ban you from the Balance Discussion forums if you use "arguments" like that one.

I pointed out that people use EA/DT/FM because they give excellent buffs/debuffs with minimal effort from the KotBS, and not because the other KotBS skills/tactics are bad. Therefore, the mentioned tactics should be looked into. The counter-argument? "Nerf-Mod".

I love it.

Not only Kotbs, you travel from topic to topic, and everything you do - "hey, let's nerf this", "hmm, let's nerf that", hmmm, "why don't we nerf that one". You are worm in the apple.

Btw, i kinda giggled, when you start to behaving like "IMMA MUDERATUR, I BAN YA'LL!".

Soulcheg wrote:
Not only Kotbs, you travel from topic to topic, and everything you do - "hey, let's nerf this", "hmm, let's nerf that", hmmm, "why don't we nerf that one". You are worm in the apple.

Btw, i kinda giggled, when you start to behaving like "IMMA MUDERATUR, I BAN YA'LL!".

I didnt bring the "moderator" thing to this thread. Someone else did by calling me "nerf-mod". It has been said SEVERAL times that we can continue posting in these forums as regular players, and i'm not about to stop because KotBS-players call me biased or "nerf-mod bruhhh!!!!111". Frankly, the "blah blah blah mod!!!!1" card is starting to get annoying.

KotBS is OP. Maybe it won't get nerfed, but trust me: It WILL be discussed. A lot. I can see 40+ pages of KotBS discussion threads in the future. You guys better start practicing with giving good counters, because the ones that have been given here so far won't float at all in the future.

Penril wrote:

Soulcheg wrote:
KotBS is OP. Maybe it won't get nerfed, but trust me: It WILL be discussed. A lot. I can see 40+ pages of KotBS discussion threads in the future. You guys better start practicing with giving good counters, because the ones that have been given here so far won't float at all in the future.

The ONLY thing about Knight that is OP is the 20% crit tank spec atm.

Azarael has also said he is annoyed at "how easy Knights are" and referred to auras + 20% crit tank spec.


I think aura adjustment could alleviate this as well as moving the two 10% crit tactics UP in their respective trees to make it much harder to get both. Or another option COULD be to remove ONE of the 10% crit tactics (like Encouraged Aim) but provide the Knight with something else in its place...

As for Auras. Several suggestions have been made.
- Decrease range of buffs.
- Decrease duration of FULL buff.

Or one I just thought of: Make the auras 'build' while in combat. So the "Press the Attack" aura would provide say 5 STR/sec while in combat. Max of say 100 (base). So its higher "upside" but also requires more build up than just "showing up". Then increasing points in the respective paths wouldnt increase the "build" but increase the MAX stats.

Would make it require more "management" and actually this is my favorite idea thus far as to make this class "more difficult" to play and not just put someone on follow.

Another option could be to "mimic" chosen but the opposite (what they like to do no?).

So give the Knight Oppressing Blows instead of "Efficient Crap" Then chance "Press the Attack" so that it provides a ~15% damage boost for 10 seconds to allies within X feet after each crit for 10 seconds or something.

So now its MUCH tougher to run SnB + Dirty Tricks and do some of these things. Cant just AFK tank anymore and its not as "fruitful" to do so either.

th3gatekeeper, nice post.