[Removed per Author]BG: none shall pass

[zabis]

Lets not forget that BG's kd is linked to block and block only. If you buffblock by 50% and any damage is coming your way (If its an actual fight there will be something) then you will insta proc it.

You are comparing it to vigilance when really what you should be comparing your modified version to is shield rush.

50% block is a very high amount to hand out on demand.

NSP does not have 100% uptime though, so you wouldn't have it on demand.

[zabis]

So how do you cast 2 channeled abilities at once?

He's not saying you can cast 2 channeled abilities at once, Tesq is saying the other 13 point abilities are insta-cast (Oathstone, Vigilence, etc.), this way they can pop that ability and then go into HTL.

[Tesq]

So how do you cast 2 channeled abilities at once?

He's not saying you can cast 2 channeled abilities at once, Tesq is saying the other 13 point abilities are insta-cast (Oathstone, Vigilence, etc.), this way they can pop that ability and then go into HTL.

actualy is not oathstone--oathstone is more similar to elite training tough it have his use in pve(keep agro doing dmg but allow you 4 sure block which in pve is life seaver)

im refering to seasoned veteran regarding (specifically to )IB which is a 15% dmg reduction proc on block ( same % as chosen oppression but same passive proc of mixed defense...ye the cross mirror is real and heavy i know).

[footpatrol2]

It is assumed in this thread that None shall pass is staying as a 13 point ability.

I had a to counter-argument with this but was waiting for the thread below to open back up
[Partially implemented] Anger drives me swap with feeding pain (swap only)
viewtopic.php?f=96&t=17583

I think the placement of none shall pass was perfectly fine as a 5 point ability with no changes. This allowed for a full malice or anguish spec to be taken and still picked up none shall pass and terrifying foe if desired. I have no real issue's with what was done with the loathing tree besides the placement of NSP.

Why was NSP important to be a 5 point ability? Because of Spiteful Slam (knockdown). With NSP as a 5 point you still have the option to go SnB and use NSP in any spec of a BG to gain access to your knockdown. You could force a block which is needed for your knockdown as long as you picked up NSP in your off-spec. I don't know why people are so focused on only 2h builds. You CAN go SnB also. There are situations where it IS more desirable to go SnB then 2hnder.

In addition NSP has amazing synergy with Khaine's Warding m4 which is likely one of the main reasons NSP was even developed. But due to the extreme slow morale gain rates on this server that is a weak argument. There were additional tricks at one point to gain early access to khaine's warding which have been removed from the game near patch 1.3.3. I'm working on a proposal to regain those tricks but that is a different discussion.

Also NSP is about blocking splash damage and guard damage to allow your healers to focus heal your guarded target more easily then having to deal with keeping you up also. It is not completely a clutch save ability.

Can't touch me on the BO has the same issue. You use can't touch me to mitigate guard damage and pump morale. It can be used as a clutch save but all you have to due is get behind the BO and knock him down and can't touch me becomes useless as with NSP.

You use NSP to trigger your knockdown, mitigate guard damage, in combo with khaine's warding which makes your group basically immune to damage for 10 sec's. NSP along With Can't touch me is a poor clutch save ability and nearly at all times a losing strategy.

[Tesq]

if KD need to be more on demand as possible it would very stupid(not you foot i speak of mythic desginer) require you to need to

A) require to spec into another skill to make it viable
B) require that skill to be usable once every 30 sec
C)still need to wait 1,5 sec after skill use + 1 block

dosen't matter in which form was intended for me it was all bad designed; i also pointed out that ye armor buff was higer but due the cross mirror between BG/KOBS none shall pass take a better turn into be a cross mirror of vigilanze and crushign advance (aka panic button) but i alredy in past told that Fof was more near to vigilance in the design; unluckily for that is a crap because it traed the secondary eff which is a crap (it's not subtractive and crit subtracion under 0 is not implemented in ror anyway) for not be able to use armor buff 100% of time + it' not a shield required skill which you can expect from a 13pt skill(actually 14pt which are half your mastery points). Somehow BG also managed to be pretty 2h pushed regarding wb play so this make even more important that on 5 pt there is a skill on mid path which is 2h friendly and this cannot be other than FoR right know. This one have value problem because being an armor buff imply that it scale with point assignment to the mastery so it's still underperforming when in 2h. Tough the secondary eff mitigate that (so for 5 pt skill is viable).
Talking about NSP as 5 pt it's more a hate builder than anything (which is lame because s+b BG spent less hate than 2h); the 2h is more hate hungry and shield/hold the line give you more def than 2h so instead help you on your weakness is something not needed/ can do with out it + it's easily interruptable and lost for 30 sec + the matter of proc kd feel like:

-> take 1 stuff to be able to use another one stuff, but not on demand and not even for sure...

You seems pushed to invest so much over a mastery which is not so great for group support exept that crush the weak which is core (so who cares about mid mastery?) because admit ...crush the weak is the bread and butter for s+b BG due to how low is hate consume and as long you are in fight it will always debuff a 20% . Before move snare the only reason for invest into mid was avoidance tactic and toughness tactic. Snare was unreachable(or too hard anyway) and a compact build for 2h was impossible. The test prove that s+b build 100% time give me max punt and max KD values, while 2h require more attention and def drop drastically every time i need to refresh debuff and regain ap.

Can't touch me on the BO has the same issue. You use can't touch me to mitigate guard damage and pump morale. It can be used as a clutch save but all you have to due is get behind the BO and knock him down and can't touch me becomes useless as with NSP.

You use NSP to trigger your knockdown, mitigate guard damage, in combo with khaine's warding which makes your group basically immune to damage for 10 sec's. NSP along With Can't touch me is a poor clutch save ability and nearly at all times a losing strategy.

if you mean can't hite me as said to megadeath this is false, BO/SM have not the same issues, because after an interrupt you can istantly put up again. BG get 30 sec CD and while using it benefith from no passive proc (exclude KD for what i wrote above)(excluding also that build because get focussed mean alredy build hate and anyway it was probably alredy at 90-100). And regardless a slight passive utility once every 30 sec for a 5 pt skill is still meh..

using an interrupable block with 30 sec cd in combination with a m4 you will never reach because you have no moral bump is a crap strategy ( i know dok had moral bump ..whatever not the point...) they can still interrupt you , **** every strategy you may have and you had just waisted time and class spot inside the party, there's too many variable in those spec for too many counter move for so many point invested and so other few utilities gain.

NB: as side note nothing of this is worth the **** that SM can do with channeling + bladeshield.

[footpatrol2]

Spoiler:

So regarding the loathing tree change. I kinda didn't even really feel like it needed a change.

But Bozzax/community made some ok'ish arguments... I guess... I mean... whatever... Does it really hurt if wave of scorn is switched with Force of fury?.. I guess not really... whatever not that big of a big deal.

Thats not what happened thou. Wave of scorn is 9 point. FoF is 5 point and NSP is 13 point...

NSP never needed to be moved.

As it is now FoF is borderline worthless as a offspec ability. NSP was not worthless as a off-spec ability. FoF needs a lot of spec points to gain a respectable amount of armor. It makes more sense to have FoF as a 13 point ability because at least you have 13 points kicking up the strength of the ability at that level. NSP was useful at all times in multiple different spec's for multiple different reasons.

This is not the place to come and complain or express feelings about a change that occurred previously. Especially when your post contributes nothing positive towards the current discussion. Please don't post like this again in this thread.

[anarchypark]

NSP was 6pt skill, it could be combined with other skills easily
NSP - Elite Training - Bolstering Anger - NSP was good tanking rotation for 1 example
between those 30sec, 1min CD u could put other skills
NSP's long CD was kinda acceptable cuz it was cheap 6pt skill
and other 2 skills filled the gap if interrupted
now it's 14pt, it's hard to combine it with others, NSP became alone

u need to be rr70 only to get above rotation
one of good SnB tanking build is gone IMO
instead 2h BG can have parry, aoe snare and FoF

anyway NSP need some buff
but not with OP's suggestion

Okay lets see. Lets imagine None Shell Pass works as a buff. At 100 hate with Hold The Line my BG gets 58.3% block, 66.4% parry, 76.7% dodge, 102.1% disrupt.

good point about synergy with Hold the Line and
50% defence in this game have drawbacks. they burn AP and can't do anything else
OP's suggestion makes NSP without drawback
simply it's too much

my suggestion is lowering CD to 20 sec
u might want 15 sec in case of interrupting which is main problem of NSP
but after full 10s run u can back on NSP too easily in 5s

to avoid NSP spam it can't be lower

[Tesq]

1)elite training is not an avoidance skill it's ap recharge for the group, then four hits get done istantly by 4 ppl hitting you; 1,5 sec of semi protection from 4 only physical dmg is not avoidance

2)use elite training + NSP is a waste of time and group utility, anyway even stacking parry tactic, disrupt tactic, hold the line it reach a medium of 75% of medium of mitigation(or total of all % inside all defenses), something that a BO reach with 1 channeling and 2 passive tactic. + Bo even have a magic dmg reduction skill for all group

3)disrupt tactic + hold the line is a 75% only vs bw which is the higest dmg class on the game ( bw have also a dirsupt ignore tactic); also disrupt cannot defense guard dmg, BG rvr build is 2h based, You disrupt do not assist your group, you staing in hold the line do not assist the group

Since you are so pressuring this thread with the mega fear of hold the line + NSP i tried to debunk some max build for every class( i omitted 1 tactic from the sm due to also give block while in 2h and the 5% + dmg because it was not pure avoidance + 2h BO because s+b is staple meta)

Spoiler:

Full avaiable skills/tactics for avoidance for every class set up+ hold the line when s+b
0/50/45/45 (1 tactic) chosen
0/75/50/70(2h-1 tactic), 15/25/45/65 (s+b 2 tactic) SM
80/0/0/0 ( 1 tactic) BO
10/15/45/60 (2 tactic) KOBS
10/25/45/45 (1 tactic) iB
0/30/0/30 (2h-2 tactic), 0/30/45/75(s+b 2 tactic) BG

10% block is traded due chosen-IB tactics cross mirror for a 25% for parry so 10% in block can be consider a = 25% in parry (per conversion purpose regardinfg efficency in stack and multiple cost in stacking only block vs stack 3 def) and so a 25% in all def which mean fixing, exept for the BO which have no bonuses to the other def, the value to have in all other value the conversion the 80% is a general 80% chance to avoid dmg

0/50/45/45 (1 tactic) chosen
0/75/50/70(2h- 1 tactic), 0/50/70/90 SM (s+b- 2 tactic)
80/0/0/0 ( 2 tactic) BO ( since cannot stuck both cant hit me and htl i left full block which is pure then)
0/40/70/85 tactic) KOBS
0/50/70/70 (1 tactic) iB
0/30/0/30 (2h- 2 tactic), 0/30/45/75(s+b 2 tactic) BG

chosen medium = 46.6 (skill with dmg reductio? =yes +spamable dmg reduction)
2h SM medium= 65 (dmg reduction? = no)
s+b SM = 70 (dmg reduction? =no
s+b BO = 80 (dmg reduction? =yes)
IB= 63 (dmg reduction? =yes)
2h bg=20 (dmg reduction? =no)
s+b BG=50 (dmg reduction? =no but NSP)
KOBS =65(dmg reduction? =yes)

Tank with dmg reduction:
chosen medium = 46.6(skill with dmg reductio? =yes 15%)
s+b BO = 80 (dmg reduction? =yes 20% all group M.dmg only) exeption -60% snare while channeling
IB= 63 (dmg reduction? =yes 2 tactic for 20%)
KOBS =65(dmg reduction? =yes 50%)

Tank with out it:
2h bg=20 (dmg reduction? =no)
s+b BG=50 (dmg reduction? = no but NSP )
2h SM medium= 65 (dmg reduction? = no)
s+b SM = 70 (dmg reduction? =no)

Even add a 50% block for 10 sec, which is a Panic button and so not refreshable, BG would not even be better than BO .... the results would be ignore the bg, if you really care about the % nerf the block %, toldav alredy pointed this out if the 50% must preclude to make this viable reduces this value. But the skill must be self buff(blessing) to be used effectivly with active playstile



-2 tactic
-14pt skill
-hold the line

i think you tried to jimp BG enough while ALL other tank have this skills/tactics totally either passive proc or ista buff skill or requring NOT A 14 PT nor 2x tactics alltogheter

while BG loose all this time bo/sm can proc stat steal with their channeling and enter/exit from the channeling at will also doing their other buff/debuff. I think this spoiler prove enough that NSP and hold the line stack are not a problem ( and even if they are it's normal, they would behaviour as any other panic button + hold the line for just 10 sec...).
They do not prevent moral over you. You are not unkillable and they behaviour the same way as a KOBS vigilance + hold the line
BG is nor famous for his fantastic dps which is a factor in how many defense you have because more def= less dmg and so fix the problem with renown/tactics etc aka trade def stuff for utility or dmg. Each classes use renow/tactics to fix his weakness or improve all good stuff, in no way BG is currently a tank which can be both immortal + give super support to +the group and also be unkillable. Also have not a dmg reduction is far worst than a simple block wall..... 1 KD and hits from the back will ignore all you're defense. At that point you will have just waste 1 party spot. Stop complain turtle spec, something like this have no meta/sense http://www.ror.builders/career/black-gu ... 920,927&t=

[anarchypark]

stat steal while channeling? nobody use WoDS for that purpose nor it helps tanking
and Elite Training is for both parry and ap refill after NSP's ap burning

bigger issue is you are changing channeling skill to 1 click buff skill
with HtL is one thing
i'm more worried about buff with other skills
BG is build up class with long CD, long rotaion, slow but at peak it has small upper hand over others tanking
max tough, 25% crit reduction, absolb shield, small heal, parry +/- disrupt or -75% magic dmg
now add up 50% block buff to this rotation?
are we talking about balance or unbalance

b4 the skill re-order, plus above rotaion u can heal urself and get 50% block to stay alive to get full heal effect
u lose rotation buffs but can start again from 0
it was self sustaining tank machine, too bad 6man don't need such thing
so u gave up this for 2h buff

i'm still suggesting 20sec CD
but if 2h BGs agree to lose FoF or aoe snare bringing back to 6pt might be an option

[Tesq]

stat steal while channeling? nobody use WoDS for that purpose nor it helps tanking
and Elite Training is for both parry and ap refill after NSP's ap burning

bigger issue is you are changing channeling skill to 1 click buff skill
with HtL is one thing
i'm more worried about buff with other skills
BG is build up class with long CD, long rotaion, slow but at peak it has small upper hand over others tanking
max tough, 25% crit reduction, absolb shield, small heal, parry +/- disrupt or -75% magic dmg
now add up 50% block buff to this rotation?
are we talking about balance or unbalance

b4 the skill re-order, plus above rotaion u can heal urself and get 50% block to stay alive to get full heal effect
u lose rotation buffs but can start again from 0
it was self sustaining tank machine, too bad 6man don't need such thing
so u gave up this for 2h buff

i'm still suggesting 20sec CD
but if 2h BGs agree to lose FoF or aoe snare bringing back to 6pt might be an option

nobody said you are actually stay 100% of the time in channeling on SM/BO rather than ,doing that when you "need" do not prevent you to stat steal, or either exit/enter from channeling apply other more specific debuff/buff then re enter.....BG while hold the line or NSP cannot do anything and proc no buff/debuff at all, it's the only tank that have to suffer from such thing, The efficency of the avoidance on other classes also leave more point for them to spec less def from renown.
Malekit bulwark is a false friend you can definetly use the toughness tactic in his place, the heal reduction is insane.
The nsp and heal argument is really bad you cannot take 2x avoidance tactric + self heal+ NSP and even doing that you would leave so many things behind.