Mara vs WL

[Toldavf]

With no tb their damage should be higher in t4 making them much more viable.

[Keyser]

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The bugs described here do not work on RoR, also TE > 65 feet won't work as the RoR code checks if targets are in legit range at the end of the cast afaik.

Thats good to hear. Thank you!

What else got mentioned? His defense! True, on live marauder was the most tanky mdps in the game. Again that was based on insane high armor values. Even without stacking armor, a marauder had an armor overcap. A luxus he won't have here, at least i hope so (depends on what the devs are planning). What that means is that even if he was armor debuffed by the highest order armor debuff (WL), he still had around 60-70% mitigation depending on his set. Popping monstrosity was ofc too strong bc the more armor you have, the more effective the buff becomes. On RoR a Marauder is very vulnerable after being armor debuffed. That means monstro provides not even 50% of what it was on live. Giving him an baited trap equivalent (what Med suggested) might be too good and better than the actual implementation, so it might be a step into the wrong direction and end up with a buff. Not even mentioning the impact of iniative, FoF debuff (fix) and general chance to be critted.

I agree that the monstro buff wont get as effective as it was live but it is and will be still one of the best defensive abilities any class can have. You did not mention: While we/wh have to use knockback or while wl can pounce to a target away from the melee train, the marauder can switch to monstro, gets his defense increased and still can keep pressuring. Even when his dmg output gets decreased it is a huge difference if a mdd is able to stay within the assist train or not.

I do not have a better solution for an extra defensive ability (besides detaunt) but I think 0% armor penetration is way too strong compared to what other mDDs provide defensively.

[Marsares]

Ap issues were the biggest thorn in WL's side back on live; after burst rotation, WL becomes meh for sustained dmg which is why 2 x slayer always trumped it. Agree with everything mentioned above.

I'm not sure how big of a problem AP really is for the WL. Yes, we quickly become AP starved but there needs to be a trade-off. If AP is not a concern, coupled with very high burst, then the combination results in sustained damage that may stray into the realm of OP-ness.

In my view, the WL should be a quick class... agile and mobile in its movement, quick in it's taking down of opponents, but accepting that if it's burst rotation didn't result in a death, he should get out and have the tools to do so. However, there needs to be trade-offs: high burst damage against clothies vs lower damage against high armour targets, and short very high burst damage vs longer sustained damage.

That's why I run my WL as an assist against other classes that provide more sustained damage. As an example, a Slayer provides the sustained pressure damage whilst the WL then moves in at the right time to finish off the target through a quick high damage burst rotation. I run out of AP, but I still do my job.

[Dajciekrwi]

Looking back over my previous posts, they may have come across as somewhat negative. I did not mean to be like that, but may have been perceived as such purely because I'm passionate about the WL.

I think the WL is in a pretty decent shape and capable of fulfilling its role, which I believe to be one of a mobile single-target assassin that gets into backlines, takes out some clothies through strong single-target burst and then rapidly gets out again.

Mate, y very accurately describe the tasks od Wl. Surely - hit & run tactic is backbone of WL. Noone cant says that WL, cant kill Sorc or WE.
In these way, you should not compare WL (fast but soft) with Mara (tough but slow), but maybe with WL with WE or SH?.
Now, Mara on Savage (most popular spec now , imao) follow Tank and debuff, debuff , debuff all on his way. Both clas have in fact a very little in common.
in other otherwise, what we do next, we will consider "what Wl can do against 2h BG" ?

[Bretin]

Ap issues were the biggest thorn in WL's side back on live; after burst rotation, WL becomes meh for sustained dmg which is why 2 x slayer always trumped it. Agree with everything mentioned above.

Wrong. AP were never a problem within a group in which you have/had at least 1 kotbs combined with wp/rp or wp/wp. The problem with the WL on live was that his armor debuff became less impactful due to the high armor values while slayers could receive insane amounts of WS when having already way better sustain. Most DoK's i know had enough armor to still be capped after being already debuffed by WL. Sustain was the main damage type during the RR100 era thanks to the overall tankyness. Burst died with TB and so did WL. He relies on his pet & burst which is provided by the armor debuff. 1.4 was an overall counter to the WL. It has nothing to do with AP.

You did not mention: While we/wh have to use knockback or while wl can pounce to a target away from the melee train, the marauder can switch to monstro, gets his defense increased and still can keep pressuring.

Pressuring in monstro? That will probably never happen and it never happend on live. Monstrosity is a pure defensive stance and outside largescale 100% useless. Even there its damage is mediocre at best. What makes it good there are the related tactics.

Even when his dmg output gets decreased it is a huge difference if a mdd is able to stay within the assist train or not.

a marauder will srsly never just stay and spam demolition to proc monstro and keep the mysterious pressure up. whether does your AP management allow you to do so nor does it make any sense. what you do is using demolition to get the proc and then kite out. if you cant get rid of the pressure you turn around and swing again until it is up but you will never stay and spam. when being pressured a marauder has to disengage as much as any other dps class especially in RoR with those fairly low armor values.

I do not have a better solution for an extra defensive ability (besides detaunt) but I think 0% armor penetration is way too strong compared to what other mDDs provide defensively.

Slayer provides an AoE CD increase which is probably the best defensive tool in the game.
Slayer has a core armor tactic (racial) and a morale 1 against all damage types.
Slayer has an AoE Snare.

WL has pounce, the best movement tool in the game & Baited Trap which may will become stronger than the Monstro proc. Hence this is why it is related to a certain tree and not a core ability.

WH/WE do have stealth and can disappear completely.

Choppa is a mongo though and has nothing but an AoE snare.

[peterthepan3]

WL most definitely suffered from AP issues which hampered its sustained damage. The other factors you mentioned are true also, but the class as a whole suffered from AP issues which had a knock-on effect on its ability to keep the pressure going.

That group comp helped a lot that's true, but doesn't take away from the fact that a WL has some pretty hefty ap costs (most pet classes do) and even in an ideal setup could not keep up sustained damage as well as a Slayer (maybe even a well-played WH). Against a bg/mara (even dok) with ap drain, the benefits of kotbs/rp are somewhat nullified.

[Toldavf]

Hmm it doesn't seem like they are that much more AP heavy than a slayer. At 45AP very 3 gcd ID is expensive to keep up.

[Luth]

Ap issues were the biggest thorn in WL's side back on live; after burst rotation, WL becomes meh for sustained dmg which is why 2 x slayer always trumped it. Agree with everything mentioned above.

I'm not sure how big of a problem AP really is for the WL. Yes, we quickly become AP starved but there needs to be a trade-off. If AP is not a concern, coupled with very high burst, then the combination results in sustained damage that may stray into the realm of OP-ness.

In my view, the WL should be a quick class... agile and mobile in its movement, quick in it's taking down of opponents, but accepting that if it's burst rotation didn't result in a death, he should get out and have the tools to do so. However, there needs to be trade-offs: high burst damage against clothies vs lower damage against high armour targets, and short very high burst damage vs longer sustained damage.

That's why I run my WL as an assist against other classes that provide more sustained damage. As an example, a Slayer provides the sustained pressure damage whilst the WL then moves in at the right time to finish off the target through a quick high damage burst rotation. I run out of AP, but I still do my job.

"AP-issues" does not only mean the costs, but also factors in any ap-drains. Most organised groups know about the specific weaknesses of the class and how to counter it; as a WL you can count on being AP-drained asap, if there is a shaman around + other possibilities to suck the precious AP out of them.
Imo no other class suffers from AP drains/profits from increased AP regen/pool/pots that much.
This should be taken into consideration when talking about his burst potential; if he is bursting the enemies squishies, then it is because they let him (killing the pet to cripple his DPS output, which make "revenge" mandatory, was already mentioned).

[peterthepan3]

Ap issues were the biggest thorn in WL's side back on live; after burst rotation, WL becomes meh for sustained dmg which is why 2 x slayer always trumped it. Agree with everything mentioned above.

I'm not sure how big of a problem AP really is for the WL. Yes, we quickly become AP starved but there needs to be a trade-off. If AP is not a concern, coupled with very high burst, then the combination results in sustained damage that may stray into the realm of OP-ness.

In my view, the WL should be a quick class... agile and mobile in its movement, quick in it's taking down of opponents, but accepting that if it's burst rotation didn't result in a death, he should get out and have the tools to do so. However, there needs to be trade-offs: high burst damage against clothies vs lower damage against high armour targets, and short very high burst damage vs longer sustained damage.

That's why I run my WL as an assist against other classes that provide more sustained damage. As an example, a Slayer provides the sustained pressure damage whilst the WL then moves in at the right time to finish off the target through a quick high damage burst rotation. I run out of AP, but I still do my job.

Agreed. That concept works provided that burst is able to be delivered, which is why the pet should be a bit tougher/not killed in 2 gcds.

Revenge! is another example of Mythic not bothering to implement a decent mechanic and, instead, bandaiding the class with a tactic to deal with an inherent flaw in class design.

[Luth]

About AP: the AP pool increases by 2x25 AP with increasing renown ranks and most WLs ran around with "kamenra" (7% AP steal proc) or the blue lodt talis (12% AP steal proc), so the problems got lowered/were not noticable anymore with higher RR and better equip.