Which class would you like to see in the Balance Forum?

[Shadowgurke]

What is this ridiculously good CC?

They have every single CC in the game. Knockback, Root, Stagger, Knockdown, RIFT

* If you're referring to large-scale RvR when you say they are 'viable', then yes - they are - but that is only because of rift.

Yes that is precisely what I said. And I want to emphasize that you can't just ignore the implications of buffing magus/engi dps without considering Rift.

* The magus/engineer is not a pure CC class. There is simply not enough potent CC/unique CC that only the magus/engineer provides to justify rendering them as a CC bot. They all have 3 trees dedicated to damage, have a plethora of different damaging skills - but about 2-4 useful CC abilities. Also said CC abilities are very reliant on playing with competent people who won't break them, as once they are broken this 'ridiculously good CC' becomes moot.

You just said that Magus/Engi is taken for it's Rift and viable because of that- Maybe you don't consider that ability CC?

* I am a bit lost as to why any buffs to the Magus/engineer Havoc/Rifle and Changing/Grenadier - ST and ST/Long-range aoe tree (aka non-rift trees) would justify removing the only ability that warrants taking a magus at all? Unless that damage were exponential.

Every ability you improve buffs the entire class. Every tactic you buff results in magus being stronger. Rift still means you can go somewhat deep into another tree. You think buffing Havoc/Changing will result in a strong ST spec. I believe it will result in a strong Rift/DPS spec.

[kweedko]

Hmm yeah you have a point, sadly not all needed balance changes were made by mythic and some didnt make sense. I dont think its a good idea to balance careers around anni gear since you'll run into problems in the long run when more gear becomes available, but its a good as any starting point. Balance will I think always be in flux and requires constant attention once you dedicate yourself to making balancing acts, good thing we are on an alpha state server where that is the perfect sandbox to do so.

and thats why i posted this

Long time ago when WAR was live i got an idea for some kind of all class balance

here it is make a resists and armor softcap tangled to wearing armor so:

tanks got 75% armor and 35% rez caps (don't start whine they still got block, distrupt and tactics reducing magic damage gona be usefull)
medium armor classes 50% armor 50% rez
cloth classes 35% armor 75% rez

what you think of it guys is it gonna be viable or current system is better, where everybody stacking armor?

it's affecting every class and whole balance of the game in every tier in every set

[bloodi]

Even if you tie it to things like Tzeentch Firestorm or at least in the same position in a tree?

I understand your concern about improving rift but there is skills you just cant spec if you want rift also, if you buff those, where is the issue?

[Shadowgurke]

No that's absolutely fine. I just want to emphasize that you have to put some thought into what you buff on Magus/Engi. The most obvious thought would be buffing spells that are unavailable in Rift spec, yes.

[peterthepan3]

agree with you, bloodi. (wow...did i say that?) banter aside

Shadow: every one of those CCs can be provided by another class (tank KD/KB, disarms sorc has that too, stagger I'll give you that but as I said its situational at best).

If you spec for Rift, you are specing for PBAOE DPS. There is no other spec for rift. You lose out on too many tactics/skills that are necessary for ST DPS. I'm not sure if the same holds for engineer, but for Magus you absolutely need BoC, crit tactic, IFOC, range tactic - possibly even changing range tactic. Which is why to say that buffing the class (which doesn't, btw, necessarily mean damage) in the single-target department justifies removal of an ability in the pbaoe tree right at the top, is ridiculous.

[Renork]

What is this ridiculously good CC?

They have every single CC in the game. Knockback, Root, Stagger, Knockdown, RIFT

* If you're referring to large-scale RvR when you say they are 'viable', then yes - they are - but that is only because of rift.

Yes that is precisely what I said. And I want to emphasize that you can't just ignore the implications of buffing magus/engi dps without considering Rift.

* The magus/engineer is not a pure CC class. There is simply not enough potent CC/unique CC that only the magus/engineer provides to justify rendering them as a CC bot. They all have 3 trees dedicated to damage, have a plethora of different damaging skills - but about 2-4 useful CC abilities. Also said CC abilities are very reliant on playing with competent people who won't break them, as once they are broken this 'ridiculously good CC' becomes moot.

You just said that Magus/Engi is taken for it's Rift and viable because of that- Maybe you don't consider that ability CC?

* I am a bit lost as to why any buffs to the Magus/engineer Havoc/Rifle and Changing/Grenadier - ST and ST/Long-range aoe tree (aka non-rift trees) would justify removing the only ability that warrants taking a magus at all? Unless that damage were exponential.

Every ability you improve buffs the entire class. Every tactic you buff results in magus being stronger. Rift still means you can go somewhat deep into another tree. You think buffing Havoc/Changing will result in a strong ST spec. I believe it will result in a strong Rift/DPS spec.

If you get peterpan banned, I will riot. On a serious note, I do agree to *some* extent. I do believe the class needs to be tweaked some though.

[bloodi]

agree with you, bloodi. (wow...did i say that?) banter aside

Is the exact same argument i use for balancing around both 6vs6 and warband play. You disagreed with that.

I use it to help your argument about magus, you agree with it.

Think about that for a while will you?

[kweedko]

on of server i got a buddy palyed magus to the 100 rr WITHOUT a rift, he just go something like this http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mag ... ;;;0:0:0:0: and he overdps everybody overkill everybody and don't give a frog, sorcs - were crying when he come to capital sieges and rvr cuse they know that they got nothing and none once he complain that magus is bad

[Eathisword]

Okay. Here it is. Why SM & BO are strong atm: It's their damage. This is more aimed at IB vs SM than it is for BG vs BO, because I feel like IB is totally viable . With a SM or a BO you have 3 dps. Hence you can kill targets through guard and decent healers. If you don't have the SM or the BO, you have to get tricky with punts. That is really the biggest factor. 3 DPS can consistently kill a guarded target- 2 DPS have to rely on burst windows, punts, enemy mistakes etc.

IB's damage is very comparable to SM. People say its not for obscure reason but it is. If you forgo the useless heal debuff (it is Mostly Harmless... in 6v6) and AoE snare (knight has one) and go something like this waronlinebuilder.org - Ironbreaker build; gear smartly. i.e. 600 strength, 600 toughness, 375+ WS, 30-35% parry (all these without buffs);

You will do comparable damage to a SM. + you have on demand KD, a 25% parry buff for the guy being trained and a good punt + you armor debuff the target for 1200 which helps your team whereas the SM spirit debuff and parry buffs help only himself (in a melee train). So Mountain can go back at playing Mountain.

Most IB do less damage cause they spec points in brotherhood to Earthshatter + Punishing Knock (or Runic shield). So they lose 200-300 armor debuff, flat 10% damage (greatweapon tactic), a **** metric ton of damage from Grudge-born Fury (losing it is like a SM without Ether Dance... so yeah... no wonder IB feel they do less damage) and (for now, RR being low) the 10% crit buff.

Brotherhood IB spec ressemble more a SM Vaul and Hoeth spec, i.e. lower damage/better utility. Vengeance heavy spec is more on par with Khaine spec SM. From my gameplay experience, in Heavy vengeance spec, IB gain about 30% damage over the more standard triple spec.

On Magus/Engie : they need a heal debuff. Damage is fine, utility is great. BUT no heal debuff = not a real threat. Imo, all dps should have access to a heal debuff. Otoh, no healers and no tanks should have access to a heal debuff as it is the single most powerful offensive ability in the game and should define who is a true dps and who is not.

#nerfAM #nerfmeleedok

[Shadowgurke]

Shadow: every one of those CCs can be provided by another class (tank KD/KB, disarms sorc has that too, stagger I'll give you that but as I said its situational at best).

I don't quite follow you there. Having multiples of the same CC is never bad. I never said that the Magus is an essential asset to the group. And Rift is unique, btw

I want you to understand that we are on the same page about Magus. But you dislike Rift and want him to be something else. I don't play Magus anymore and don't care about how the class is played, hence Magus being a Riftbot is fine in my eyes. I understand that the design is lacking, but so is the Knight for example. That does not make him weak.

If you spec for Rift, you are specing for PBAOE DPS. There is no other spec for rift. You lose out on too many tactics/skills that are necessary for ST DPS. I'm not sure if the same holds for engineer, but for Magus you absolutely need BoC, crit tactic, IFOC, range tactic - possibly even changing range tactic. Which is why to say that buffing the class (which doesn't, btw, necessarily mean damage) in the single-target department justifies removal of an ability in the pbaoe tree right at the top, is ridiculous.

First of all: Removal of Rift? I did not say that at all.
I just want you to understand the implications of buffing ST Magus. Of course Havoc/Change Magus will outdps Rift Magus. But you will still buff Rift Magus, a class that is already pretty strong. And it's not unlikely that the best spec at the end of the day is still going to be the Rift Magus, now with more single target damage than before.

Since you mentioned not buffing damage: While I like the general idea, making Magus viable in 6v6 (that is your goal?) means you have to buff damage. Unless you can come up with something pretty crazy.

@Eathisword: Your spec is not a secret and you will not do more damage than a SM. The armordebuff utility gets covered by the WL already. I play the same spec btw.